0007651: Default ORIENTATION excludes some animals from breeding

Notes
(0027649) Dame de la Licorne (reporter) 2014-07-26 17:07 edited on: 2014-07-27 07:17	The save file is available here: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9166 [^] Edit: The giant lions don't seem to be breeding either, but I'm assuming that has something to do with the [PET_EXOTIC] tag. Edit2: As a side-note, this fort has had no romantic relationships begin (all marriages migrated in), even though I read the wiki and changed the [ORIENTATION] values (before genning the world) for male and female dwarves to make them all heterosexual. I don't know if this is also a bug or if I've just been unlucky, though.

(0028657) tacomagic (reporter) 2014-08-09 11:33 edited on: 2014-08-09 11:34	Another save with breeding issues in .40.06: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9332 [^] In this fort there is a pair of cats, a pair of pigs, and a 3:1 Female/male collection of peahens/cocks that cannot seem to breed. The fort is a little over 2 years old, and all the animals are from embark. 2 of the 3 peahens have been sitting on eggs behind locked doors for the better part of the entire 2 years. This may be related to the 2 stuck giant owls on the map, or the fact that an undead siege left a random undead elf wandering around.

(0028690) musicmastermsh (reporter) 2014-08-09 19:04 edited on: 2014-08-09 19:06	40.06 - two embark alpaca have produced no additional alpacas in time it's taken three dogs to produce more than twenty puppies and my seven unmarried starter dwarves have produced eleven children. I do indeed have a barn owl stuck in mid-air, for what it's worth.

(0028756) tacomagic (reporter) 2014-08-10 14:38 edited on: 2014-08-10 14:39	Started a new game, this time I disabled all fliers by removing the flier tag. Interestingly, I was still getting birds that would climb up into trees and get stuck. That wasn't a big deal, I'd just cut the tree down to dislodge them. I did not disable invasions, but so far I've only had one group of kobolds thieves show up, who were chased off. Embarked with the exact same compliment of animals from my other save plus 4 dogs (3:1 female/male). Everything except the dogs have had multiple litters. In one year of play the cats have bred twice, the peahens have hatched 3 batches of chicks, the pack animals had 1 calf, and my pigs have had 2 piglets. Also had some wild carp spawn. For whatever reason, my 3 female and 1 male dog collection has produced no puppies in the first year. Seems that stuck birds or the wandering undead from the timed-out invasion might have something to do with making the bug worse, but it also appears that some animals will inexplicably fail to breed for no discernible reason. Either that or I just got unlucky with the RNG on my dogs. I'll be working on a 0.40.07 game to see if I can replicate the issue and narrow down some causal factors.

(0028935) Quietust (reporter) 2014-08-13 05:51	A brief look at the animal breeding logic suggests that this is related to ORIENTATION values, though as far as I can tell [ORIENTATION:(opposite):0:0:N] should allow them to breed properly.

(0028936) Dame de la Licorne (reporter) 2014-08-13 05:56	Anyone interested in this bug (or the potentially related 0007905) may want to check out this thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=142171.0, [^] where some members of the community are trying to pin it down through !!SCIENCE!!

(0028949) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-08-13 09:01	This dilemma has precedent in the ancient world: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=obel7Iu1hik#t=38 [^]

(0028989) tacomagic (reporter) 2014-08-13 13:57	In the modern world as well. Giraffes and non-pride male lions are actually rather well know for homosexual relations. Anyway, I just managed to prove that this "Bug" is indeed caused by the orientation tag: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=142171.msg5570374#msg5570374 [^] At this point it would be nice to know if this is intended behavior or not. From a viewpoint of the meat industry and related gameplay, it's a mixed bag. It's great that homosexuality in animals is represented from an equality and representational standpoint, but at the same time, animals that don't breed and can't be trained for war will tend to be selectively slaughtered to make way for ones that actually produce offspring. That sends a dubious message at best.

(0029003) Authority2 (reporter) 2014-08-13 17:59	I agree. If this gets fixed, it would be good to have some kind of animal infertility rate as a replacement.

(0029333) Dame de la Licorne (reporter) 2014-08-19 16:19	Confirming that this is still present in .40.09. Also, perhaps it might be good to change the name to something like: animals fertile/sterile according to apparent orientation tagging?

(0032219) Goblin Cookie (reporter) 2015-02-15 05:20 edited on: 2015-02-15 05:20	I think of this one more as a feuture than as a bug. It makes breeding animals harder and means you need a larger breeding population.

(0032388) MystRunner (reporter) 2015-03-20 20:07 edited on: 2015-03-20 20:08	I can confirm this is still an ongoing issue in DF .40.24. I usually make a thriving egg farm and seems none of my eggs are hatching. Also my pig milk farm is two years old and hasn't produced a new piglet. The only new babies I get are from animals traded in or brought in migrant waves. They may have one baby then nothing. Now all the poultry I bought at the very beginning. (some turkeys, geese, and chickens) did lay one clutch of eggs that did hatch. but havn't gotten a hatched clutch since then.

(0032423) Loci (manager) 2015-03-26 12:32	@MystRunner: There's nothing in this bug report that would cause a previously-fertile animal to stop breeding. Note that "breeding by spores" was removed--separating your males and females now inhibits breeding. Also, because of this bug, slaughtering all your "spare" males can be problematic if you don't carefully examine the males you intend to use for breeding.

(0032676) NW_Kohaku (reporter) 2015-05-11 20:15 edited on: 2015-05-11 20:16	To respond to it being "intended", if this is purely about [ORIENTATION], I'd say there's still a problem. Yes, there are gay dogs and lions and whatever, but that's completely separate from these animals not breeding because of "commitment issues". Dogs and lions and elk breed in harems, and I have yet to see a dog that refuses to hump anything (be it another dog or a pillow) until after they've met their humping target's parent or the pillow's owner and made it clear they have honorable intentions. Those are social and psychological problems non-sentient animals don't need to contend with, and as such, non-social animals shouldn't be barred from breeding due to "commitment issues". (Birds have mating rituals that could certainly be considered commitment, as they are for life, and I've heard of gay penguins and such that nest with others of their own gender, but I've not heard of a problem of penguins just enjoying the bachelor lifestyle too much to start a mating ritual.) As commitment issues are 4 times as likely as being gay, it's likely that more often than not, the problem is this commitment thing, rather than being gay.

(0032751) CLuther88 (reporter) 2015-05-30 15:59	Most animals are sentient, by the way. They're just not necessarily as intelligent as humans.

(0034180) Toady One (administrator) 2015-12-24 14:13	Having handled the commitment bug, I'm satisfied enough to close this one.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2014-07-26 16:53	Dame de la Licorne	New Issue
2014-07-26 17:07	Dame de la Licorne	Note Added: 0027649
2014-07-26 17:09	Dame de la Licorne	Note Edited: 0027649	View Revisions
2014-07-27 05:51	Dame de la Licorne	Note Edited: 0027649	View Revisions
2014-07-27 07:17	Dame de la Licorne	Note Edited: 0027649	View Revisions
2014-08-09 11:33	tacomagic	Note Added: 0028657
2014-08-09 11:33	tacomagic	Note Edited: 0028657	View Revisions
2014-08-09 11:34	tacomagic	Note Edited: 0028657	View Revisions
2014-08-09 12:20	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0006737
2014-08-09 19:04	musicmastermsh	Note Added: 0028690
2014-08-09 19:06	musicmastermsh	Note Edited: 0028690	View Revisions
2014-08-10 14:38	tacomagic	Note Added: 0028756
2014-08-10 14:39	tacomagic	Note Edited: 0028756	View Revisions
2014-08-12 02:45	Dame de la Licorne	Note Added: 0028867
2014-08-12 02:49	Dame de la Licorne	Note Deleted: 0028867
2014-08-13 05:51	Quietust	Note Added: 0028935
2014-08-13 05:56	Dame de la Licorne	Note Added: 0028936
2014-08-13 08:59	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0007905
2014-08-13 09:01	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0028949
2014-08-13 13:57	tacomagic	Note Added: 0028989
2014-08-13 14:17	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Footkerchief
2014-08-13 14:17	Footkerchief	Status	new => confirmed
2014-08-13 14:17	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: Intentional/Expected?
2014-08-13 17:59	Authority2	Note Added: 0029003
2014-08-16 17:57	Button	Issue Monitored: Button
2014-08-17 16:09	tacomagic	Issue Monitored: tacomagic
2014-08-19 16:19	Dame de la Licorne	Note Added: 0029333
2014-08-19 16:50	Footkerchief	Summary	Some animals (mainly camels) bought on embark are not breeding => Default ORIENTATION excludes some animals from breeding
2014-08-23 15:50	Knight Otu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0008128
2014-08-26 08:07	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0008071
2014-09-03 08:46	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0008132
2015-02-12 14:01	lethosor	Relationship added	related to 0008815
2015-02-15 05:20	Goblin Cookie	Note Added: 0032219
2015-02-15 05:20	Goblin Cookie	Note Edited: 0032219	View Revisions
2015-03-20 20:07	MystRunner	Note Added: 0032388
2015-03-20 20:08	MystRunner	Note Edited: 0032388	View Revisions
2015-03-26 12:32	Loci	Note Added: 0032423
2015-04-16 15:54	Afghani84	Issue Monitored: Afghani84
2015-05-11 20:15	NW_Kohaku	Note Added: 0032676
2015-05-11 20:16	NW_Kohaku	Note Edited: 0032676	View Revisions
2015-05-21 16:01	lethosor	Sticky Issue	No => Yes
2015-05-30 15:59	CLuther88	Note Added: 0032751
2015-12-24 14:13	Toady One	Note Added: 0034180
2015-12-24 14:13	Toady One	Status	confirmed => resolved
2015-12-24 14:13	Toady One	Fixed in Version	=> Next Version
2015-12-24 14:13	Toady One	Resolution	open => fixed
2015-12-24 14:13	Toady One	Assigned To	Footkerchief => Toady One
2015-12-27 13:38	Dwarfu	Tag Detached: Intentional/Expected?
2015-12-27 13:38	Dwarfu	Sticky Issue	Yes => No
2016-01-03 06:14	Afghani84	Issue End Monitor: Afghani84
2017-03-18 11:22	Button	Issue End Monitor: Button