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Notes |
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Passing out from a broken arm seems pretty reasonable. What other wounds did he have? |
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Thats it,
I can understand it fi he was normal, but it was just a "Shattered" arm and he was "Superhumanly tough" |
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Yeah, I'm not convinced. It's not self-evident that "superhumanly tough" should let you shrug off shattered bones. This is a minor balance issue at best, and you already made a suggestion for it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=56054.0 [^]), so I'm closing the report. |
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I would like to try and reopen this with a few statements, this happens from other minor injuries too, like bruised guts, and a still have trouble thinking a "shattered" finger would cause a "Superhumanly" character to pass out MULTIABLE TIMES! I mean up to NINE TIMES from a broken FINGER. |
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Don't get confused by the crappy terminology -- "bruised" guts can mean anything from "bruised" to "crushed into jelly." A "shattered" finger could likewise be completely crushed. Seriously, tweaks of this kind are NOT BUGS. |
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Well if that was so, why did my newly created adventurer suffer a "chipped" leg bone from an arrow and actually passed out (I counted) 7 times, and right when he woke up a swordsman came along and killed him. (he probually would have passed out more if he didnt die)
First of all, I understand a chipped bone could cause passing out, but not SEVERAL TIMES. maybe once, maybe even thrice, but a "superhumanly tough" adventurer shouldnt pass out SEVEN times from a "chipped" leg |
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Why do people think "shattered" is some minor injury? It's the hard piece in your finger/arm which is completely destroyed, of course it's going to hurt! without treatment, any normal person wouldn't wake up at all after passing out. Also, why are people complaining about adventurers waking up? they are superhumanly though, without it the would be killed by that swordsman while unconscious. |
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(0009926)
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hyndis
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2010-07-11 02:55
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A shattered limb that was being twisted further would be utterly agonizing. It would drop anyone due to the massive amount of pain.
Only a person loaded up on crack or PCP would be able to ignore that magnitude of pain. |
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well currently "shattered" is how the game calls a simply broken bone, I mean they can be currently bruised. fractured, "Shattered" (shattered seems to be just how the game counts a bnroken bone "His right leg is broken")
It just dosnt make ANY sense why he passes out about 7 times, and most of the time when he wakes up the first time he gets hurt even more, thus making him pass out LONGER then seven times. |
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It just dosnt make ANY sense why he passes out about 7 times, and most of the time when he wakes up the first time he gets hurt even more, thus making him pass out LONGER then seven times.
It turns out that getting beat up hurts IRL. Do you have a save or not? |
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Well, LOSING LIMBS hurts LESS then "chipping" bones, somethings not right here. |
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(0009975)
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Footkerchief
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2010-07-11 16:52
(edited on: 2010-07-11 16:53) |
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Just wondering how a save could help you, just made an adventurer and start attacking once you start and go on a rampage and hope a hammerman comes along and try and let him hit you, if it shatters the bone you will pass out several times, then you should die, do it again, this time with a ranger and hope you get a "chipped" bone, you should pass out several times again, do it one last time with a swordsman and let him hack your arm off, you should pass out only twice or so. |
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(0009980)
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Footkerchief
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2010-07-11 17:01
(edited on: 2010-07-11 17:09) |
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Just wondering how a save could help you, just made an adventurer and start attacking once you start and go on a rampage and hope a hammerman comes along and try and let him hit you, if it shatters the bone you will pass out several times, then you should die, do it again, this time with a ranger and hope you get a "chipped" bone, you should pass out several times again, do it one last time with a swordsman and let him hack your arm off, you should pass out only twice or so.
To work on this problem, Toady needs to see it happening ingame. The method you described takes time and will not reliably result in an adventurer passing out from pain. That may seem inconsequential, but Toady has thousands of bugs to look at, and that time really adds up.
If it's as easy to reproduce as you say, it should be easy for you to upload a save. I'm not sure why you're being stubborn about this, given the amount of time you've spent on this report already. http://dffd.wimbli.com/ [^]
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I wish I knew how to quote here but this is EXTREMELY easy to reproduce, you dont even need do be attacked! (this method is even better as when you go into the passing out fit you wont die and have the fit ended prematurely)
Just find a good 3 z-level drop and make your adventurer fling himself off of it. keep doing this untill one bone counts as "broken" in the description page.
Hell, you could even easily do this in arena, make two humans, controll one and do a joint lock on the other's limb (I perfer arms) and try and break it, then run away and drop magma and water on the joint-breaker to kill him, Now try and controll the human who had his leg broken and count how many times he passes out. |
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You'd also have to take into account the toughness though.
There is no quoting function for the notes on the bug tracker ubfortunately. |
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let me take a baseball bat and chip one of ur bones.. tell me it doesnt hurt |
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this is EXTREMELY easy to reproduce, you dont even need do be attacked! (this method is even better as when you go into the passing out fit you wont die and have the fit ended prematurely)
Did you miss what I said about how Toady will have to spend time doing that? Time he could spend working on other bugs instead? What objection do you have to uploading a save? |
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Uploading a save right now, just need to find a way to break a bone without involving combat so You can see how many times the "superhumanly" adv passes out. |
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and of course my last thing is how they pass out SO MANY TIMES.
A friend of mine broke his toe and he was in a fit of agony but didnt pass out.
like if a adventurer who "shattered" his leg passed out for lets say a long time then woke up I would be fine with this, but here instead of a single long passed out period its a long period of being passed out composed of a bunch of short pass outs and wake ups.
Like It should be one LONG passout that lasts 30 turns or something instead of 6 pass outs that last 5 turns each. |
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(0013823)
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toybasher
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2010-11-14 07:58
(edited on: 2010-11-14 08:55) |
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And sorry for the bump but I did more testing in ADV mode
A "Superhuman" human can get limbs chopped off and not suffer ANY pain at all (actually minor pain in the health screen but not enough to cause the little yellow "PAIN" sign to come up)
I had him lose a few limbs and he practibly suffered NO pain yet once he broke a rib he instantly passed out about 7 times and died.
Edit: appearently the "Willpower" stat effects pain too, I made both superhuman (willpower and toughness) and I got hit in the rib by a crossbow bolt and still passed out 4 times before he ran up to me (was busy fighting my teammates) amd impaled me through the brain with another bolt.
By the time I woke up one turn away from getting killed I still had "EXTREME PAIN"
Broken bones are causing WAAAAAAY too much pain currently, It makes no sense how a broken rib or finger can cause a "Superhuman" human into passing out this many times yet with a hacked off arm its "Hahahah, that tickled! Didnt feel a thing!" but a broken rib or finger or whatever is more like "AHHHHHHHHHHH IT FEELS LIKE SOMEONE POURED ACID ON ME! IT BURNS!" This ends up unbalancing combat quite a bit.
Either pain alltogether needs to be amped up or bone fracture pain needs to be toned down a bit, it makes no sense for a human to lose arms and be perfectly fine with no pain whatsoever yet once he cracks a rib he instantly faints.
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Can someone please get back to me on this issue? Its even more easy to do on ADV mode as you can give yourself attributes
Honest, a superhumanly tough with super willpowered human can get arms lopped off and not even get the yellow PAIN sign
I am NOT making this up either, try it yourself.
Yet once he breaks a finger he instantly goes into EXTREME PAIN and passes out several dozen times.
How is this not a bug? Why does breaking a finger hurt extremely bad for my adventurers yet a lopped off arm tickles to him? How does that make sense at all? |
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(0013867)
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Murphy
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2010-11-15 05:38
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It's because bone tissue has [PAIN_RECEPTORS:50] while everything else has either 5 or none. Fixable by a single raw edit. |
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Thats what I mean, its just plain annoying for my superhuman advs to shrug off missing limbs yet a single broken rib pretty much makes them pass out 8 times, it should at least be toned down so a broken bone only hurts as much as a severed limb, or something around that. |
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(0013894)
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Pirate
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2010-11-15 14:27
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Breaking a bone itself shouldn't make a hero pass out. trying to use a broken limb or getting hit in it again is something completly different, and this should be extremely painful. |
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Pirate, my point, but its a superhuman, and its just stupid, why the heck does losing BOTH ARMS AND A FOOT hurt LESS then cracking a rib? WHy is losing 3 limbs causing minor pain for my superhuman when a cracked rib is agonizing for him?
Its just weird, he should be able to shrug off both, this ends up making maces and hamemr OP as one cracked rib is enough to keep a superhuman out for at least 4 pass outs, MORE then enough time to cave their head in |
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(0014015)
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Orkel2
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2010-11-19 07:14
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I can confirm this happening, it's a major combat balance breaker. Should be fixed asap, don't you think. |
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This isn't limited to adventure mode either.
Makes combat a HUGE pain. (No pun intended)
Needs to be at least bumped up in severity, I think bone tissue should be dropped in pain receptor value. |
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As I told you before (0000723:0006730), the severity field doesn't matter. Toady doesn't find it useful. |
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Curious, does DF treat bone pain the same no matter what the bone is? The broken finger causing someone to pass out does, seem to be extreme. |
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Yes, it's the bone tissue that has PAIN_RECEPTORS so all that matters is its at least "Factured", once that happens even "SUperhumanly tough with superhuman willpower" creatures wll pass out about 3 or so times, even though they just broke a toe, yet they can lose entire limbs and be fine. |
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Happened again, passed out 9 times as a superhuman adv from a broken leg. needs to be fixed ASAP, its friggen annoying as all **** and unbalances combat with aimed attacks as the fingers are easist to break.
is just retarded, why can you lose limbs and be fine yet a broken limb makes you pass out? severing measn its torn completely off! I understand superhumans able to shrug it off but Im talking a broken toe hurting WORSE! |
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(0014234)
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Jiri Petru
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2010-11-26 17:46
(edited on: 2010-11-26 17:47) |
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Perhaps this while report should be closed and instead replaced by something akin: "Pain doesn't respect the size of the injured bodypart" with a link to the above topic?
The more I read about it, the more I'm convinced it's not in issue of bone sensitivity (shattering a large bone should hurt like hell) as much as an issue of small wounds causing too much pain.
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(0014241)
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toybasher
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2010-11-27 08:24
(edited on: 2010-11-27 08:45) |
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That doesn't explain SUPERHUMANS able to shrug off missing limbs yet a broken leg instantly knocking themm out many times.
I mean if your tough enough to the point that you dont even suffer minor pain from a torn off leg I cant see why you cant shrug off shattered bones
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(0014250)
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Sfon
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2010-11-27 13:46
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Pain receptors are unbalanced in the raws. Bone has 50 while everything else has 5. The result is this nice, complex system breaking down to little more than a binary "broken bone yes/no?"
Making it worse is that cutting parts off does not cause meaningful pain. Since chipped bone = pass out, this seems like an internal bug rather than a raw issue. As if it is not counting severing as significantly damaging tissues in regards to pain, leading to frequent Monty Python-esque combat. I tried reproducing this in the arena, but the victim died quickly from blood loss which I have never seen happen in adventure mode.
Breaking a bone is painful, yes, but so is tripping over an assortment of your own intestines and severed limbs. |
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(0014263)
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Narmio
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2010-11-27 17:40
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[i]That doesn't explain SUPERHUMANS able to shrug off missing limbs yet a broken leg instantly knocking them out many times.[/i]
This is a separate bug. Missing limbs do not have their effects well modelled right now as there is no tissue left to be damaged. Losing, say, a lower arm should also create a serious wound in your upper arm - including extensive bone damage, to reflect the fact that your lower arm is GONE! However, currently, the sever happens perfectly cleanly and, since there is no damaged tissue attached to the body, nothing but bleeding happens.
What I'm saying is that yes, the pain receptors in bones do need to be looked at, including respecting both the size of the part and how it is being used. However, comparing pain from broken bones to pain from severs is not useful, because severs have their own largely unrelated problems. |
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and more importantly lets get technical here
If you severed your arm, the entire tissue is destroyed, this means you need to cut through the bone in order to sever it,
So a broken bone causes EXTREME PAIN
but a sever IRL also means the bone is destroyed, why does that cause little pain. |
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Its not broken limbs that cause too much pain, its ALL bones period. |
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More testing, even with the highest stats possible a creature who breaks a bone will ALWAYS pass out about 4 times, doesnt matter which bone is broken either, (a broken leg hurts just as much as a broken rib or finger)
Needs to be fixed, unbalances combat and is just a pain in the rear end when your superhuman adventruer dies cause he broke a finger and passed out.
ANd like i said so many times, severs hurt LESS then broken bones, how does this make any sense? I would imagine if i broke my shoulder, or had it torn off im sure having it painfully ripped off would hurt MUCH more then a cracked bone.
And that brings us to problem two, even fractured bones cause this problem, not nessceserily shattered. We need to find a proper pain receptor value for bone, perhaps one that causes less pain, yet still causes a good amount of pain of several bones are broken?
Its not as noticeable in fortress mode as you have a army, but in adventure mode its EXTREMELY obivous, one arrow to a rib and your out like a light.
Can we bring this up to Toady? Thanks. |
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0004590 is probably a parent of this one - it may just be that there are too many pain receptors in general, and broken bones are just a great way of showing it off.
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(0018246)
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theothersteve7
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2011-07-15 07:36
(edited on: 2011-07-15 07:37) |
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From a balance standpoint I'd say upping pain from muscle damage, etc., relative to bone damage makes more sense than leaving as is. It seems any broken bones pretty much disable any combatant, while having your fat melted from your body and legs severed at the hips only impedes your running speed and makes you skinny. So relatively speaking, this is a bug.
As injuries go, broken fingers and whatnot vary a lot but frequently people don't even realize that bones are broken when they get hurt, especially small fractures. Obviously a shattered femur is different than a cracked ring finger. You could totally mangle a finger and I really doubt anyone would pass out, especially with the adrenaline of combat. Humans (or dwarves in this case) are tougher than people give them credit for.
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(0019951)
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Cheesoburgor
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2012-02-17 12:08
(edited on: 2012-02-17 12:09) |
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i think its ok if you pass out many times because wrestlers are pretty ineffective if you ask me but i still think that the superhuman tough should not pass out 7 times
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Just so we're clear, dealing with pain is influenced by your willpower stat, toughness merely lets you resist damage. Your "superhuman" adventurers probably don't have any better willpower than an average human, unless you raised that stat. |
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i had a human adventurer , he was not a superhuman. when i got in a combat with hamerer , he shatered my left lower arm and right lower arm bones , i didnt pass out . i throwed my cave spider silk shoe and it somehow shatered hamerers upper spine . after that i could crawl about 10 squares and not passing out but then i got shot in head and died.
and i were not a vampire or were-beast. |
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I made a few adventurers with superhuman willpower, and they still suffer from passing out several times when bones are broken. It also happens in fortress mode but its harder to notice because of how quick time passes.
Replying to theothersteve7 you are also correct with other tissues having "Not enough" pain receptors. Infact, I can't even think of times my adventurer has suffered much pain, besides from the damaged bones outlined above.
A good solution would be to up the pain effects of other tissue damage while also increasing the effects of the willpower stat. I can't notice much of a difference between bone breaks with adventurers from superhuman willpower to the smallest amount possible (forgot the stat descriptor) |
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(0025420)
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Xangi
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2014-07-09 17:17
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So basically 40.xx made this a thousand times worse. The new pulping essentially means that a single pulped finger will knock you out regardless of your previous condition, and there appears to have been a pain rework which makes all other bone damage knock you out with alarming regularity.
This really needs a fix. I've made a personal one here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ohpogozse5pqy74/tissue_template_default.txt [^]) but frankly I'd rather see an official one. |
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(0025459)
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Bloax
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2014-07-09 20:05
(edited on: 2014-07-10 05:36) |
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The status quo is that hitting any kind of bone with a bow shot results in an instant passout on the receiving end of the arrow.
That's not a very good status quo if you consider how ranged weapons are also substantially faster to fire now. (They don't spontaneously murder you by letting the enemies have untold amounts of turns for free now.)
edit: botched up that initial sentence
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Tagged as "Probable Quick Fix" because fix can be accomplished by simple editing of the raws. |
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I don't think this needs as radical a change as many people seem to think, maybe even none.
Extreme agony makes it difficult to do things, especially things which require physical effort. It seems to me that multiple brief instances of "passing out" is a good way of approximating this effect. I find no justification for the above quote, "It should be one LONG passout that lasts 30 turns or something instead of 6 pass outs that last 5 turns each." In many cases, collecting all brief passouts into one contiguous stretch would be less realistic, not more. The point is to realize how long the period or periods of unconsciousness last, and ask whether it's a reasonable approximation of the incapacitating effect of extreme agony. Remember, sufferers in dire situations almost always do get back up and try again. Instead of decrying the number of passouts, a fairly arbitrary statistic, you could marvel at the fact that they soldier on at all.
After all, there's a very good reason why the agony of a damaged bone should be more incapacitating than, say, a grievous flesh wound. Trying to engage in everyday activity, let alone combat, with broken bones could cause the injured person to tear their body apart from the inside. |
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(0025812)
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Footkerchief
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2014-07-11 11:46
(edited on: 2014-07-11 11:50) |
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Yeah, but even tiny bone chips currently cause a gigantic amount of pain. There should be such a thing as minor, grazing bone wounds.
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That's reasonable, but I worry that the "quick fix" of lowering the number of pain receptors will throw the baby out with the bath water. |
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I agree. I'm not convinced this problem is confined to the raws. I've removed the "Probable Quick Fix" tag. |
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This may be redundant, but I am playing fortress mode on 40.03, and broken limbs are putting my dwarves into comas. They are perpetually unconscious from broken fingers and toes, and it is quite irritating, though slightly amusing. They do wake up, however, if they are drowning. |
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If other types of tissue were causing these problems, I'd agree with "throwing the baby out with the bath water", but only bones are causing this problem. I fail to see what good is going to be gotten rid of or other problem missed by simply lowering the number of pain receptors in the bones. Also, coming from someone who practices their swordsmanship, I'd argue that getting a deep cut is much more painful than getting certain bones fractured or chipped. |
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I adjusted some calculations based on relative size of the part for now. There's more to do, but this should stop the trouble with toes while still leaving the basic mechanic in for multiple broken limbs etc. |
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