Dwarf Fortress Bug Tracker - Dwarf Fortress
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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0002635Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Jobs, Healthcarepublic2010-07-11 14:412010-07-19 11:17
Reportercephalo 
Assigned ToLogical2u 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusresolvedResolutionduplicate 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0002635: Medical skills rusting very fast.
DescriptionI'm finding that my medical dwarves are losing their skills, in spite of having a few wounded dwarves every year. After nine years, I've had about 20 dwarves die, and probably 10 saved by medical skills. I don't want to purposely try to wound dwarves just to keep their skills up.

All of my medical dwarves have less skill then they had when they entered the map. They need to study or something.

Steps To Reproduce
Additional Information
Tagsskills
Relationships
duplicate of 0001829resolved Toady One Dwarf skills decrease rapidly without use. 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2010-07-11 14:41cephaloNew Issue
2010-07-11 15:05Logical2uRelationship addedchild of 0001829
2010-07-12 06:45TomiTapioTag Attached: skills
2010-07-12 08:24FootkerchiefIssue Monitored: Logical2u
2010-07-12 08:47CrytenNote Added: 0010032
2010-07-12 12:14cephaloNote Added: 0010056
2010-07-12 12:14cephaloNote Edited: 0010056bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0010056#r3890
2010-07-12 15:43Logical2uNote Added: 0010073
2010-07-12 15:43Logical2uRelationship replacedduplicate of 0001829
2010-07-12 15:43Logical2uStatusnew => resolved
2010-07-12 15:43Logical2uResolutionopen => duplicate
2010-07-12 15:43Logical2uAssigned To => Logical2u
2010-07-12 15:43Logical2uIssue End Monitor: Logical2u
2010-07-19 11:08cephaloNote Added: 0010657
2010-07-19 11:08cephaloStatusresolved => needs feedback
2010-07-19 11:08cephaloResolutionduplicate => reopened
2010-07-19 11:17FootkerchiefNote Added: 0010658
2010-07-19 11:17FootkerchiefNote Edited: 0010658bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0010658#r4149
2010-07-19 11:17FootkerchiefStatusneeds feedback => resolved
2010-07-19 11:17FootkerchiefResolutionreopened => duplicate
2010-07-19 12:32FootkerchiefNote Edited: 0010658bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0010658#r4150

Notes
(0010032)
Cryten   
2010-07-12 08:47   
The ability for dwarves to be assigned study to keep up their skills is a nice idea, though it is a suggestion not a bug. I guess the issue would be that the rust on the skill is greater then it should be if your doc is treating a few wounded each year.
Question: do you have to many doc's thus diluting any potential counter to rust?
(0010056)
cephalo   
2010-07-12 12:14   
I have 4 guys who have (or used to have) various medical skills for 70 dwarves or so. I've seen all of them doing medical tasks at some point, but not equally. My original doctor who I embarked with at Novice for all medical skills has no skills at all anymore.

Should it be impossible to maintain a small force of doctors in case of a really bad emergency? Or for no Doctor to ever gain skill? I can't believe that's intended behavior. I would say it's certainly an oversight in the 'skill rust' system.
(0010073)
Logical2u   
2010-07-12 15:43   
The more I think about it (and based on your most recent note, Cephalo), I'm going to mark this as a duplicate of 0001829. I originally thought that 0001829 was more about attributes.

Cephalo feel free to leave notes or comments from this report onto 0001829's notes, but I don't think a save or a new bug is really necessary. The medical professions are going to be among the worst hit by any sort of attribute rust in a peaceful fortress, so I believe that you've just experienced 0001829 with a much less active subset of professionals.

If you have any suggestions relating to this topic that may resolve 0001829, feel free to make a note on the forums.
(0010657)
cephalo   
2010-07-19 11:08   
I'd like to re-open this issue, as the reason for it's resolution is the determination that skill rust, in general, is working as intended. However, there is still the problem that in the case of medical dwarves, not only is there is no way to have them increase skills, but in a normal active fort there is no way to prevent skill loss.

There are a couple of reasons why medical dwarves do not have enough labor to keep their skills up.

The first and most obvious one is that the primary objective of dwarf mode is to keep your dwarves in good condition with careful fortress design. The more one succeeds in this regard, the less labor is needed. To succeed at doctor training, you must fail in fortress design. Obviously, one must prefer fortress design, so there isn't really a valid trade-off in this regard.

The second reason is that even in a fairly violent and dangerous fort like mine, in order for a dwarf to need treatment, he must first survive long enough to receive treatment. Incidents that cause bodily harm happen quickly and are very often fatal. Probably 75 percent of all incidents are fatal before medical help can be applied. That alone is a 75 percent reduction in medical labor.

The combination of these two factors means that in an old fort your doctors will become peasants. In my current fort, my original doctor still does most of the medical work, yet he could not prevent the reduction of all skills to 'dabbling'. With around 7 or 8 dwarves dying per year to various dangers, and about 2 or 3 successfully treated, there aren't enough dwarves with survivable injuries.

That's a bug. I don't think this falls into the realm of 'suggestion'.
(0010658)
Footkerchief   
2010-07-19 11:17   
(edited on: 2010-07-19 12:32)
I'd like to re-open this issue, as the reason for it's resolution is the determination that skill rust, in general, is working as intended.

No, the reason was that this issue a duplicate of 0001829. I'll send Toady a reminder concerning 0001829's effects on the medical professions, which may lead him to reopen the issue, but this one's still a duplicate.

edit: reminder viewable at 0001829:0010659