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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0000744Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Combatpublic2010-04-07 15:462010-06-09 07:56
Reporterestokien 
Assigned ToToady One 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityhave not tried
StatusresolvedResolutionfixed 
PlatformPCOSWindows XP HomeOS VersionSP 3
Product Version0.31.01 
Target VersionFixed in Version0.31.06 
Summary0000744: Wolf bite unable to penetrate silk clothing, due to teeth being only as hard as skin
DescriptionI had a butcher dwarf go berserk after failing to make an artifact and it entered into combat with some soldiers and a tame wolf from an Elven Caravan. The wolf made a large number of bite attacks in this combat, every one of which was deflected by the clothing of the dwarf (mostly cave spider silk as I recall). It was less effective then the mostly untrained fists of the dwarves fighting at doing any damage. I haven't gone diving into the files, but it seems like wolf bites may be underpowered in damage from where they should be (or else silk and dwarf punches are overpowered).
Steps To Reproduce
Additional Information
TagsNo tags attached.
Relationships
has duplicate 0000802closed Footkerchief War dogs are useless 
has duplicate 0001987closed Logical2u (Pigtail Dress) > Trained War Dog x 16 
child of 0000023resolved Toady One Bite attacks frequently glance away or are generally ineffective 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2010-04-07 15:46estokienNew Issue
2010-04-07 15:53FootkerchiefRelationship addedchild of 0000033
2010-04-08 10:11FootkerchiefRelationship addedhas duplicate 0000802
2010-04-08 11:42ZasNote Added: 0002108
2010-04-08 11:48SirPenguinNote Added: 0002110
2010-04-08 11:49DroneNote Added: 0002111
2010-04-08 12:27CaptainFailmoreNote Added: 0002122
2010-04-08 18:49FootkerchiefRelationship addedchild of 0000023
2010-04-08 18:50FootkerchiefRelationship deletedchild of 0000033
2010-04-08 19:41Draco18sNote Added: 0002227
2010-04-10 11:07MysteriousAgesNote Added: 0002609
2010-04-14 23:59Rafal99Note Added: 0003631
2010-04-18 14:56derigoNote Added: 0004116
2010-04-28 01:30derigoNote Added: 0005489
2010-04-28 02:06derigoNote Added: 0005494
2010-04-28 02:13derigoNote Edited: 0005494bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0005494#r1994
2010-04-28 02:18derigoNote Edited: 0005494bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0005494#r1995
2010-04-28 02:20derigoTag Attached: quick fix
2010-04-28 02:38derigoNote Edited: 0005494bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0005494#r1996
2010-04-28 02:40derigoNote Edited: 0005494bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0005494#r1997
2010-04-28 03:43derigoNote Edited: 0005494bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0005494#r2000
2010-04-28 03:54derigoNote Edited: 0005494bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0005494#r2001
2010-04-28 07:18derigoIssue Monitored: derigo
2010-04-28 09:25FootkerchiefSummaryWolf bite unable to penetrate silk clothing => Wolf bite unable to penetrate silk clothing, due to teeth being only as hard as skin
2010-04-28 09:45smjjamesTag Attached: PROBABLE QUICK FIX
2010-04-29 16:51derigoNote Added: 0005713
2010-05-05 21:28FootkerchiefTag Detached: quick fix
2010-05-20 05:16Logical2uRelationship addedhas duplicate 0001987
2010-06-06 05:25Toady OneNote Added: 0007783
2010-06-06 05:25Toady OneStatusnew => resolved
2010-06-06 05:25Toady OneFixed in Version => 0.31.06
2010-06-06 05:25Toady OneResolutionopen => fixed
2010-06-06 05:25Toady OneAssigned To => Toady One
2010-06-07 21:52FootkerchiefTag Detached: Probable Quick Fix
2010-06-09 06:45Toady OneStatusresolved => closed
2010-06-09 07:56FootkerchiefStatusclosed => resolved

Notes
(0002108)
Zas   
2010-04-08 11:42   
I actually have a suspicion, that it is clothing that became overpowered. Because now I recall, that sometimes stones from stone-fall traps are also deflected by clothes. Blunt attacks, bites and grabs are pretty much useless through clothing.
(0002110)
SirPenguin   
2010-04-08 11:48   
Perhaps all bites are using blunt damage ala GCS?
(0002111)
Drone   
2010-04-08 11:49   
It seems that all the layer stuff is working properly but hasn't been tweaked to being uh, sensible, yet I would assume?
(0002122)
CaptainFailmore   
2010-04-08 12:27   
Silk clothes can also deflect melee attacks from demons.

It's kind of scary, actually.
(0002227)
Draco18s   
2010-04-08 19:41   
Booted up the arena and put a dwarf wearing GCS silk shirt, coat, and trousers against a dwarf with a bronze breastplate.

The silk guy won.

They were of course, without weapons and skill-less.

Same deal, but with an iron breastplate. Iron lost.

Steel: steel won. But it was close. Steel was wounded and feel unconscious, silk had just beat up iron, so was tired and wounded. Steel recovered his wounds (?) and came back to beat up the wounded silk wearer.
(0002609)
MysteriousAges   
2010-04-10 11:07   
A beserk stonecrafter has killed something like 10 dogs after being swarmed by them. The dogs are dead, and the stonecrafter is basically unscathed.
(0003631)
Rafal99   
2010-04-14 23:59   
I have seen wolf bite glance of SKIN of my woodcutter...
Something is wrong here.
(0004116)
derigo   
2010-04-18 14:56   
maybe he had a very high 'toughness?' ;p
(0005489)
derigo   
2010-04-28 01:30   
I've been rooting around in the raws lately, and I think I might've found the reason for this. If so its a quick fix.

raw quote of pertinent bits:
[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:STONE_TEMPLATE]
 ...
    Used for blunt-force combat, measured in KPa. Data scattered around the net (used compressive strength). All very spotty.
    [IMPACT_YIELD:120000] used marble
    [IMPACT_FRACTURE:120000]
    [IMPACT_ELASTICITY:100]
...
[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE]
...
    [IMPACT_YIELD:1080000] used average for stainless steel
    [IMPACT_FRACTURE:1080000]
    [IMPACT_ELASTICITY:1000]
...

[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SKIN_TEMPLATE]
...
    [IMPACT_YIELD:10000]
    [IMPACT_FRACTURE:10000]
    [IMPACT_ELASTICITY:50000]
...

[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:TOOTH_TEMPLATE]
...
    [IMPACT_YIELD:10000]
    [IMPACT_FRACTURE:10000]
    [IMPACT_ELASTICITY:100]
...

Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this mean skin is as hard as teeth, but much more flexible? The same numbers are used for all organs, leather, wood, horn, nails, hoof, hair, and other things. But take a look at bone:

[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:BONE_TEMPLATE]
...
    [IMPACT_YIELD:200000]
    [IMPACT_FRACTURE:200000]
    [IMPACT_ELASTICITY:100]
...

So bone is almost twice as hard than stone and 20 times harder than teeth. Keep in mind this is for blunt force calculations only, sheering and compressive forces account for slashing and stabbing attacks respectively.

The numbers for various metals all get overwritten by the specifc raw entries for each specific metal. But there's no equivalent of that for tissue materials like teeth so WYSIWYG hardness wise unless a creature creates a custom material on the fly in its own raw. I don't recall seeing any creatures do that with skin, teeth, hooves, horns, or muscle.

I'm going to try playing with these numbers a bit in the arena and see what happens.
(0005494)
derigo   
2010-04-28 02:06   
(edited on: 2010-04-28 03:54)
It worked! :D
I just copied the impact yeild, impact fracture, and impact elasticity values from bone onto teeth, horn, hoof, and shell, and made up something imbetween stone and bone for nail. Now grizzly bears and dogs can bite through clothing!

It looks like toady (or one of his helpers) spent a considerable amount of time and energy looking up reasonable values for the shear yield etc (tensile strength) for various substances. He left notes throughout the raw about where he got his information from. But it looks like he was copying all the templates from SKIN, and never got around to putting reasonable impact values in for things like teeth, even though those numbers do get used by bite attacks and whatnot. Copying the bone values onto the other materials will make them behave more like they should, but its not accurate to the level of detail present in the rest of the raw.

So, you can make bite attacks 'work' by doing the copy, but until toady puts his numbers in, or someone else finds or makes up really good ones, it's not going to be terribly accurate.

And be warned! Doing this change will make anything that uses natural attacks that much scarier! Elephants, forgotten beasts, demons, anything that bites or claws is all of the sudden going to be very scary.


Oh and as to the guys equipped in silk (with a breastplate!) beating guys in full plate, that's probably because without all the extra weight of the armor involved, the guy in silk gets first strike, or multiple first strikes. If you made them very high level swordsmen (or whatever) they can probably kill or disable each other in 1 or 2 hits, so its kind of a big deal. That'll only show up in duels. If you had more fighters on each side, the plate guys would come out way ahead.


EDIT: the raw to edit btw is
material_template_default.txt
forgot to mention that.
(0005713)
derigo   
2010-04-29 16:51   
Someone asked how to do this change, so I made a small guide.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=55798.0 [^]
(0007783)
Toady One   
2010-06-06 05:25   
Ah, cool. I had noticed alligators couldn't kill each other, but I thought there was more going on so I filed it with the combat rebalance stuff. I'm just going to use bone values for the necessary templates until something better comes up. I made nails more elastic. Good values are annoying to find in general.

I'm going to leave the parent issue open, as robes still seemed overpowered faced with a multi-grizzly assault on a dwarf and I want to run the numbers there later.