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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0007698Dwarf FortressWorld Generation -- Beastspublic2014-07-28 13:312015-12-10 17:08
Reporterthvaz 
Assigned To 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusnewResolutionopen 
Platformx86_64OSWindows 7OS VersionSP 1
Product Version0.40.05 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0007698: Excessive numbers of underground critters
DescriptionMedium world, 0.45
Underground Animal Populations (Including Undead)
    581079 gorlaks
    299065 trolls
    95334 giant cave spiders
    196464 naked mole dogs
    253515 giant rats
    410882 troglodytes
    276402 giant cave swallows

There are more Trolls than every civilized race together. Gorlaks are the real rulers of the world.
Steps To Reproduce
Additional InformationIt looks like some change made the reproduction of underground critters to hit absurd levels. This may have an impact on performance.
TagsNo tags attached.
Relationships
has duplicate 0007673resolved Footkerchief Larger than expected underground vermin population 
related to 0007526confirmed Dwarfu Dark towers contain thousands of goblins and trolls, causing lag 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2014-07-28 13:31thvazNew Issue
2014-07-28 13:44thvazNote Added: 0027805
2014-07-28 14:16Khym ChanurNote Added: 0027808
2014-07-28 14:55FootkerchiefRelationship addedhas duplicate 0007673
2014-07-28 14:57FootkerchiefNote Added: 0027812
2014-07-28 15:05hyndisNote Added: 0027814
2014-07-28 15:11thvazNote Added: 0027816
2014-07-28 15:16DwarfuNote Added: 0027817
2014-07-28 15:16DwarfuNote Edited: 0027817bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0027817#r10505
2014-07-28 15:39TalvienoNote Added: 0027821
2014-07-28 15:39TalvienoNote Edited: 0027821bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0027821#r10507
2014-07-28 15:40TalvienoNote Edited: 0027821bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0027821#r10508
2014-07-28 15:41DwarfuNote Edited: 0027817bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0027817#r10509
2014-07-28 15:43DwarfuNote Added: 0027822
2014-07-28 15:43DwarfuNote Edited: 0027821bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0027821#r10510
2014-07-28 15:46DwarfuRelationship addedrelated to 0007526
2015-12-10 17:08thvazNote Added: 0033752
2018-04-16 18:22HuntthetrollIssue Monitored: Huntthetroll

Notes
(0027805)
thvaz   
2014-07-28 13:44   
I meant "0.40.05" instead of "0.45"
(0027808)
Khym Chanur   
2014-07-28 14:16   
Related to or a duplicate of bug 0007673.

And it might be intentional. Not only are there three cavern layers to the one surface layer, but *everywhere* underground is suitable for underground creatures, whereas civilized creatures don't live in the middle of mountain ranges or out in the ocean.
(0027812)
Footkerchief   
2014-07-28 14:57   
This one has more useful numbers, so I'm marking the other one as a duplicate.

The numbers don't seem that outlandish, unless they're all spawning on the local map at once. Can it be shown to impact performance?
(0027814)
hyndis   
2014-07-28 15:05   
This is likely intentional. Previously it was easy enough to kill the entire population of wild animals in the world through deploying enough hunters. This seems a bit absurd. Yes, any troll that wanders on to the premises of your fortress is probably doomed. But this doesn't mean every troll is doomed. Trolls will continue to reproduce "off map" and will wander on to your map.

I believe this was done to ensure that your hunters would be viable even after many years of hunting. Animals will reproduce elsewhere and will migrate on to the map to keep your hunters busy.

Now if you had some 299,000 trolls all show up on your fortress at once, then yes, you've got a problem. But if they're showing up in small numbers at a time I don't think there will be any issue.
(0027816)
thvaz   
2014-07-28 15:11   
Animals, yes, but inteligent critters?
Same world as above:
above ground:
26 grizzly bears

underground:
57485 blind cave bears

Maybe there isn't a performance hit, but it is very strange.
(0027817)
Dwarfu   
2014-07-28 15:16   
(edited on: 2014-07-28 15:41)
The release notes for 40.05 specifically address this:

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html#2014-07-27 [^]

"Made underground populations properly respect layer size (the numbers can get very high, but blame the giant under-ocean caves in part)"
(0027821)
Talvieno   
2014-07-28 15:39   
(edited on: 2014-07-28 15:43)
If we say there are 26 bears aboveground, and assume that's a decent population... And then we assume that this is an archipelago world with 3/4 of the map covered in water, and we assume that there are the standard three cavern layers, then that's 4 * 3 * 26, which comes out at 312. 57485 cave bears is just so far from that that it's ridiculous to assume it's normal, I would think.

It would make sense if there were about 400 bears above ground, though.
(0027822)
Dwarfu   
2014-07-28 15:43   
Tildes create note links.
(0033752)
thvaz   
2015-12-10 17:08   
The issue remains in 0.42.11. While we have usually only a dozen or so aboveground critters of a given species, in the underground and on the seas species amount to the hundred of thousands. While it may (or may not) have an impact on performance, these numbers damage the coherence of the world. This could be solved by making some critters endemic to a region instead to all over all the biomes in the world (like in the real world), to create different biomes underground and in the seas (coastal, island, deep sea). I know this is suggestion territory, but it would be nice to know if in fact there isn't some kind of bug in these numbers.
Some medium world created in 0.42.02:
Underground:
718965 gorlaks
360850 trolls
114636 giant cave spiders
518397 giant moles
156604 helmet snakes
238342 naked mole dogs
747272 elk birds
193329 giant bats
Sea:
217782 gigantic squids
2589186 giant horseshoe crabs
2024925 giant sponges
Aboveground:
7 leech men
15 pythons
14 bushmasters