Dwarf Fortress Bug Tracker - Dwarf Fortress
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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0007839Dwarf FortressAdventure Mode -- Generalpublic2014-08-04 11:292014-08-04 15:20
ReporterBloax 
Assigned ToFootkerchief 
PrioritynormalSeveritymajorReproducibilityalways
StatusassignedResolutionopen 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version0.40.06 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0007839: Treading water raises Swimming to Legendary without commensurate attribute gain
DescriptionThe attribute gain from most skills is negligible to nonexistent, like going from not-a-swimmer to legendary+18 swimmer barely raising Strength/Agility/Endurance/Willpower/Spatial-/Kinesthetic-sense by 100 (I've had times when going from novice->legendary didn't even bring them to above average), and likewise going from not-a-wrestler/fighter to legendary in both skills only had the perceptible result of raising my agility by another measly 100.

We still have skills that *do* raise attributes like you would expect them to, like Armor User (and I suspect Dodger/Shield user, too - but there are likely more) which going from rank 0 to rank 9 (professional, not legendart!) resulted in a hefty +200 to Strength/Toughness/Endurance/Willpower/[Spat/Kin]-Sense, and a tidbit more here and there.
Steps To ReproduceSwimming:

Uncap your FPS
Place a dwarf in semi-deep water in the arena
Let it sit for a minute or two
Watch in awe as your dwarf is now a legendary swimmer... With barely any stat increases.

Armor user:

Make a dwarf fully dressed in armor
Place a bunch of horseshoe crabs (on a separate team so they won't murder each other) around the dwarf
(Make a macro to) mash . a whole ton
Witness in awe as your attributes have been substantially increased.
Additional InformationThis might be related to people reporting that skills are being mastered too fast in Fortress Mode, maybe - maybe not.
TagsNo tags attached.
Relationships
related to 0000089resolved Toady One Wrestler/Fighter levels up way too quickly, especially against much bigger/stronger creatures 
related to 0002948new  Stone hauling/construction doesn't increase strength 
related to 0006716new  Swimming at minimal speeds trains swimming the most 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2014-08-04 11:29BloaxNew Issue
2014-08-04 11:39BloaxNote Added: 0028297
2014-08-04 11:59FootkerchiefNote Added: 0028300
2014-08-04 11:59FootkerchiefAssigned To => Footkerchief
2014-08-04 11:59FootkerchiefStatusnew => needs feedback
2014-08-04 11:59FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0000089
2014-08-04 12:01FootkerchiefSummary[Skills] Attribute gain from (most) skills is surprisingly low => Treading water raises Swimming to Legendary without commensurate attribute gain
2014-08-04 12:05FootkerchiefNote Edited: 0028300bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0028300#r10732
2014-08-04 14:03BloaxNote Added: 0028313
2014-08-04 14:03BloaxStatusneeds feedback => assigned
2014-08-04 14:03BloaxNote Edited: 0028313bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0028313#r10742
2014-08-04 14:25FootkerchiefNote Added: 0028314
2014-08-04 14:25FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0000803
2014-08-04 14:26FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0002948
2014-08-04 14:26FootkerchiefRelationship deletedrelated to 0000803
2014-08-04 14:26FootkerchiefStatusassigned => needs feedback
2014-08-04 14:31FootkerchiefNote Edited: 0028300bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0028300#r10743
2014-08-04 14:31FootkerchiefNote Edited: 0028314bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0028314#r10745
2014-08-04 14:33BloaxNote Edited: 0028313bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0028313#r10746
2014-08-04 15:05BloaxNote Added: 0028322
2014-08-04 15:05BloaxStatusneeds feedback => assigned
2014-08-04 15:06BloaxNote Edited: 0028322bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0028322#r10748
2014-08-04 15:20TalvienoIssue Monitored: Talvieno
2014-08-11 06:22FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0006716

Notes
(0028297)
Bloax   
2014-08-04 11:39   
Swimmer/Wrestler/Fighter:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/statgain.gif [^]

+ Armor user/various other minor skills (because I stupid and didn't do it manually, but I know from having done it before that it *is* armor user that does most of the statwork):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/statgain2.gif [^]
(0028300)
Footkerchief   
2014-08-04 11:59   
(edited on: 2014-08-04 14:31)
I suspect the reason they're a Legendary Wrestler/Fighter is 0000089. I think this report should focus more on specific actions e.g. treading water -- actually moving around in the water might be handled differently. What other actions are affected?
(0028313)
Bloax   
2014-08-04 14:03   
(edited on: 2014-08-04 14:33)
The reason they're a Legendary Wrestler/Fighter is because I raised the skills up to legendary - alongside swimming - and as you may notice their stats aren't particularly higher than average, after having trained *three* skills from Dabbling to Legendary! (And I did this because this report is about how [most] skills in general give very little attribute raises - if any at all - not just swimming.)

And no, it has nothing to do with wandering in low water.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/Statgain3.gif [^]
Here's what happens if you legitimately swim (at varying speeds, even) in Water 7/7 for a really long time.

Edit: (After a while of letting the game run at lightspeed)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/statgain4.gif [^]
Well those certainly are some impressive stats (they're pretty high, alright), but the amount of skill required to get them is hilariously more impressive.
(0028314)
Footkerchief   
2014-08-04 14:25   
(edited on: 2014-08-04 14:31)
The reason they're a Legendary Wrestler/Fighter is because I raised the skills up to legendary - alongside swimming - and as you may notice their stats aren't particularly higher than average, after having trained *three* skills from Dabbling to Legendary!

Fighter is trained just by standing near an opponent, and Wrestler can be trained by grabbing someone's arm. Arguably neither of those should raise physical attributes. Like I said earlier, what matters is not the skill per se, but the action -- two given actions may use the same skill, but a different set of attributes.

(And I did this because this report is about how [most] skills in general give very little attribute raises - if any at all - not just swimming.)

"Most" isn't specific enough. Toady already took a stab at the general problem in 0000803, so we need specific details about what he missed.
(0028322)
Bloax   
2014-08-04 15:05   
(edited on: 2014-08-04 15:06)
Arguably enough grabbing someone's arm should barely raise your wrestling skill.
Arguably enough then being generally better at keeping track of combat is a prime candidate for raising your spatial sense.

Wrestling (be it joint-locks, joint breaking, pinching or gouging) barely gives any stats at all, and Fighter should definitely give you a reasonable amount of Spatial Sense.

I've already covered swimming, which likewise gives very negligible attribute raises.

Weapon combat skills seem to be somewhat decent stats (we're talking 200+ combat attributes, which is a pretty decent supplement to something like Armor User), which is good.

I can't test the more diverse Fortress Mode skills (since I've never played it), but I suspect that they too may have 'funny' issues.