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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0008239Dwarf FortressAdventure Mode -- AIpublic2014-09-04 18:462015-12-20 21:10
ReporterRobsoie 
Assigned To 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusnewResolutionopen 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version0.40.11 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0008239: groups relationships badly broken
Descriptionsave uploaded there :
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9610 [^]

I followed a * on the world map, he was in a human location, i finally met him while moving stealth and noticed he was a dwarf marksdwarf.
I went out of stealth , thinking this could be a bandit so he would turn hostile to confirm it, but he was not going hostile at all, so he was not a bandit after all.

I greeted him and asked him to join my party.

He accepted, we started to move when i suddenly saw battle messages, my party members were trying to kill him, my new party member.
And when i pressed l to look at the dwarf he was not "Ally" but was now "No Quarter" ?

I made a copy of my save (the one uploaded) and retired then looked to the legends to see what was going on as it was making no sense.

The dwarf name is Ustuth Misral ( Ustuth Hazysilver ) according to Legendsviewer he is a member of "The Mortal Tombs"
Looking in the entity section, the legends tells me "The Mortal Tombs was a human bandit gang"

So that's why this happened.

The group relationship was broken (bandit not hostile, my companion not attacking him) and for some reason the fact he accepted to join me "fixed" apparently that broken group relationship and he was then becoming the hostile bandit he should have been.
Steps To Reproduce
Additional Information
TagsNo tags attached.
Relationships
related to 0000158new  Faction leader gave task to kill demonic law-giver of same faction 
related to 0008233new  Odd accusation of murder 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2014-09-04 18:46RobsoieNew Issue
2014-09-04 18:57RobsoieNote Added: 0029952
2014-09-04 18:57RobsoieNote Edited: 0029952bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0029952#r11640
2014-09-04 18:59RobsoieNote Edited: 0029952bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0029952#r11641
2014-09-04 19:17RobsoieNote Edited: 0029952bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0029952#r11642
2014-09-08 11:48FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0008233
2014-09-12 17:05RobsoieNote Added: 0030147
2014-09-12 17:07RobsoieNote Edited: 0030147bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030147#r11764
2014-09-12 17:07RobsoieNote Edited: 0030147bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030147#r11765
2014-09-12 18:03smjjamesNote Added: 0030150
2014-09-12 18:44RobsoieNote Added: 0030151
2014-09-13 05:40RobsoieNote Added: 0030160
2014-09-13 05:41RobsoieNote Edited: 0030160bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030160#r11767
2014-09-13 05:48RobsoieNote Edited: 0030160bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030160#r11768
2014-09-13 16:51MopsyIssue Monitored: Mopsy
2014-09-27 02:24RobsoieNote Added: 0030394
2014-09-27 02:26RobsoieNote Edited: 0030394bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030394#r11876
2014-09-27 02:27RobsoieNote Edited: 0030394bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030394#r11877
2014-09-27 02:27RobsoieNote Edited: 0030394bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030394#r11878
2014-09-27 04:27MopsyNote Added: 0030396
2014-09-27 04:28MopsyNote Edited: 0030396bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030396#r11880
2014-09-27 09:54RobsoieNote Added: 0030402
2014-09-27 09:58RobsoieNote Edited: 0030402bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030402#r11884
2014-09-27 11:51smjjamesNote Added: 0030404
2014-10-26 02:50RobsoieNote Added: 0030731
2015-01-09 09:58FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0000158
2015-12-20 21:10HededeIssue Monitored: Hedede
2018-04-16 17:39HuntthetrollIssue Monitored: Huntthetroll

Notes
(0029952)
Robsoie   
2014-09-04 18:57   
(edited on: 2014-09-04 19:17)
Happened again just now while continuing the adventure from the save, there was another * that i followed, it was a lasher, i wasn't stealth, none went hostile at all , both my party members or the lasher.

I greet the lasher, asked to join, and the lasher accepted.

Suddenly everyone start to sprint around, fight and lasher is now dead.

Lasher name was Sostux Suslaaro (Sostux Prowledwrath)
According to Legends member of The Silvery Messiahs, a group of humans.

Looks like there's some big problem with relationships , i thought in past version it was stealth and everyone being horrified that was breaking relationship, but this time it's apparently something else

Maybe it's an ambush code that fail (as i didn't walked in world map to the exact location of the * , but stopped before and walked in the gameplay map) and so does not give proper relationships attributes ?

edit : related to broken group relationships, i found the bandit overlord, Pessal Materude (PessaL Paintglide, the overlord of the Silvery Messiahs) in the castle (empty on surface) basement of that town.
I uploaded a save there, while i'm still stealth and the overlord hasn't noticed me :

Disable stealth and you and your party member can walk up to him, he will not turn hostile despite he's a bandit overlord.
You can even greet him and talk as if he wasn't who he is.
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9612 [^]

Looks like group relationship is indeed broken without relations to stealth or horrified individuals.
(0030147)
Robsoie   
2014-09-12 17:05   
(edited on: 2014-09-12 17:07)
in 40.12 (world generated in 40.12 too)
I got another broken group relation/reaction example :
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9682 [^]

My character was in a bandit camp that featured lots of kobolds.
I asked my 2 companions to wait at some distance, so i could sneak around instead of them alerting the kobolds.

After killing nearly all the kobolds present, i decide to grab the last surviving kobold (that has been completely oblivious to the whole carnage) and throw him with wrestling.
After getting up, the kobold ran away from me, this would make sense as every of his allies are dead, so i ran after the monster, lost him (as he's much faster than me) , then found him again.

At the point of the saved game, the kobold is heading back toward the camp, i'm following it.

It's important to remember we're in a bandit camp and that is a kobold of that bandit group and that kobold has been running away from me after i attacked it.

Now at the point of the save, follow him to the south, notice how the kobold casually walk next to my companions.
And notice how my companions do not even react to that bandit presence next to them.

Being in stealth or not does not make a difference.
(0030150)
smjjames   
2014-09-12 18:03   
It MIGHT be because you told them to stand there, which basically means, stay there and don't move, including attacks maybe.
(0030151)
Robsoie   
2014-09-12 18:44   
I really hope it's not the case as it would mean you can't set any kind of ambushes using your companions.

That said, assuming this is unfortunately the intended behaviour (companions not attacking any enemy near them when you ask them to wait), why is the actual enemy (the kobold)not even bothered by their presence ?
After running away from me he should be more than alarmed by the view of my allies, unless groups relations/reactions are as i think truly broken (as at that point maybe he's not even considered as an enemy at all)
(0030160)
Robsoie   
2014-09-13 05:40   
(edited on: 2014-09-13 05:48)
Ok, i think it's the relation/reaction that are indeed really broken.

I went to another bandit camp at a few tiles west from the kobold bandit camp So my save of the previous post can be used, the other bandit camp is close enough for reaching it with a walk.
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9682 [^]

When i reached the camp i saw it was a goblin bandit camp
I decided to test my theory about relation/reaction not working with bandits and did not used stealth to approach with all my companions.

A goblin ran away, but the other goblins did not, in fact they did absolutely nothing out of the usual "there's fighting what's going on" from time to time, and i just walked to a goblin, killed him in 1 hit to the neck with my axe, then i walked to the goblin ringleader (that still didn't reacted) and killed him in 2 hits.

And only at that time other goblins started to run away (still not even trying to fight) and my companions running after them

It's really badly broken unfortunately.
(0030394)
Robsoie   
2014-09-27 02:24   
(edited on: 2014-09-27 02:27)
Adding some observations about the broken relationships/reactions.

I'm starting to wonder if civilisation/entities relationships with individuals are not failing to update, both during worldgen or during gameplay time, and that could be why nothing makes sense anymore regarding relationships/reactions in DF2014.

I mean, here in 34.11 , my character managed to defeat a bandit boss in his camp in which the battle was hard and cost the lives of my allies, relationships with entities/civs are updated, some civs/entities consider me as a hero while other consider me now as an enemy.
http://i.imgur.com/Z1tphBE.gif [^]

And the bandit boss : as seen during his long reign he made very logically several entities/civs as his enemies
http://i.imgur.com/EmBchrh.gif [^]

Now in 40.13 i run an adventurer (that is a hearthperson and the lord told him they were harrassed by bandits) that get into the bandit camp my lord pointed to, in which nearly none reacted to me or my companions at first and we killed them easily because when they decided to actually react, it was only about running away.
http://i.imgur.com/fjpIClZ.gif [^]

notice that despite i killed all the bandits (my companions killed a couple more) no civs/entities that were victims of those bandits view me more positively and more importantly : notice how no civs/entities view me negatively (the bandit civ isn't even viewing me as an enemy ! )
This is a week +/- after reporting all my kills, so there's not the excuse about "none know about it" in the region

Now let's see the bandit leader that is amongst the killed, named a warlord for this case :
http://i.imgur.com/gjpS9Xz.gif [^]

Notice that despite he had a long reign ( 25 years ! ) as a bandit warlord, there's still no entity/civs that view him as an enemy !
That could be an explanation why relationships/reactions between entity/civs members do not make much sense anymore in df2014 if there's no update of them.
(0030396)
Mopsy   
2014-09-27 04:27   
(edited on: 2014-09-27 04:28)
This looks like very good research, consistent with what you and other people have been observing since 40.1. It would also explain other cases of NPC obliviousness, like issue 0007163.

I wonder if Toady has simply set too low speed or too strict conditions for the propagation of rumors, since I have occasionally had NPC's recognize me as a famous person (presumably for my heroic slayings). "It's good to finally meet you."

It might be helpful if you also posted the 40.13 save you got those screencaps from.
(0030402)
Robsoie   
2014-09-27 09:54   
(edited on: 2014-09-27 09:58)
Here a save with my character but i retired/unretired since (so more time moved) :
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9801 [^]

Hmm, it's possible it's a question of rumors updating too slowly but out of that it seems something is going wrong with this :
Because i retired and unretired again my character (to let more time going and see if the bandit would be replaced, and apparently he was not), and now i see some entity/civ considering my character as "rumored killer".
But very interesting : none of those civs/entities are related to the bandits entity from what i read of them in the legends.

But still even if it's not the expected one, there's some kind of progress but it takes more time than i thought (especially considering i report all those death a day after i destroyed the bandit camp).

And there's the case of the bandit warlord, he has been doing banditry for incredible amount of time and has never seen his status regarding other civs/entities updated in the 25 years he was even known as the warlord of his group, (despite the "pseudo quest" from my lord was clear about that bandit group being a real threat).

And i wonder if that slow update going a bit wrong is too responsible of this kind of dialogues as i sometime get :
http://i.imgur.com/fyfF4rs.gif [^]
Here it was a previous character that killed a known minotaur, and someone task my newer character to go kill it, and after asking the direction, he even mention that the minotaur has been killed.
(0030404)
smjjames   
2014-09-27 11:51   
The discussion starts roughly halfway on the page of this thread, continues a bit sporadically in the next page http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=51245.6775 [^] and then the main part which is this bug report is on page 274

Kind of needs to be split off from that thread though.
(0030731)
Robsoie   
2014-10-26 02:50   
Got a new problem between groups in 40.14 (world generated in 40.14)

At night i noticed a * in the wilderness, i went there and noticed a tent with sleeping humans and a sleeping dwarf.

I decided to sleep there too instead of killing them as there's no way to know if they're friendly troops or enemy ones and there wasn't a goblin in that group.
Waking up at night due to "uneasy" feeling, i went outside of the tent and battled a bunch of dingos with my companions.

Once done i went back inside the tent and noticed to my surprise the humans and the dwarf were awake (i thought they were affected by the eternal sleep bug) , i moved in the back of the tent, and noticed message about a fight, went back and noticed the dwarf was fighting one of my companions and managed to kill him.

Still none and not even the dwarf was hostile to me, i asked the dwarf to yield , that he did, then ordered him to drop his pike, that he did and i took it.

Back to sleep, again "uneasy" feeling, while none was sleeping or being hostile to me i went outside, one of my companion went to follow me , and we saw nothing, i moved around the tent, spotted a human crossbowman that wasn't hostile, and moved around him until i saw messages about my companions getting filled by bolts.
I went back to the human crossbowman and still he wasn't hostile ?
I moved away to see if there was another crossbow user, and messages about fight appeared, i went back and the human crossbowman and saw he was now fighting my heavily wounded companion in melee.
But still that human crossbowman isn't hostile.
save is there :
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9973 [^]