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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0000945Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Environmentpublic2010-04-10 13:362010-08-03 12:11
ReporterDoctorZuber 
Assigned ToToady One 
PrioritylowSeveritytweakReproducibilityalways
StatusresolvedResolutionfixed 
PlatformPCOSWindows VistaOS Versionmeh
Product Version0.31.02 
Target VersionFixed in Version0.31.06 
Summary0000945: Temperature Settings in world gen behaving strangely
Descriptionokay, I'm just going to lay out a few of my more extreme examples to illustrate the point.

world gen pocket region, default except for temperature 50:50:0:0
This generates temperatures ranging from freezing to hot which is just strange. 50:50:0:0 should be generating nothing but temperate terrain.

world gen pocket region, temperature 50:50:0:0, elevation 275:325:26:26, default otherwise
This is my cleanest test for trying to rule out elevation, I can't quite go pure flat or I can't embark and look around. This again results in freezing to hot.

world gen pocket region, temperature -1000:1000:26:26, default otherwise
embarking here on a far north scorching tile generates the more or less expected result of instantly dead dwarves. It also generates the bonus effect of EVERYTHING ELSE catching fire too, the entire map was enveloped in smoke instantly, the game ended in about 3 seconds.

Conclusions
Something has been changed which is affecting the temperature worldgen settings

Theory
I do recall a note about elevation affecting temperature now. If this is what's causing this, it makes no bloody sense, I've seen scorching mountain peaks and frozen seas in the same map which is the exact opposite of what one might expect.

There does seem to be a trend for this effect to be on the north/south edges of a map. Which edge is hot or cold seems random.
Steps To Reproduce-try different temperature settings in worldgen
-try different elevation settings too
Additional Information
Tagstemperature, worldgen
Relationships
related to 0000190closed Toady One Adventurers and dwarves melt in rain/water 
related to 0000673resolved Footkerchief On embark screen neighbours are listed as 'No Trade' without apparent reason 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2010-04-10 13:36DoctorZuberNew Issue
2010-04-10 13:38DoctorZuberNote Added: 0002639
2010-04-10 13:39DoctorZuberTag Attached: temperature
2010-04-10 13:39DoctorZuberTag Attached: worldgen
2010-04-10 13:46DoctorZuberNote Added: 0002640
2010-04-11 00:23FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0000190
2010-04-17 06:24Toady OneNote Added: 0003975
2010-04-17 06:24Toady OneStatusnew => resolved
2010-04-17 06:24Toady OneResolutionopen => no change required
2010-04-17 06:24Toady OneAssigned To => Toady One
2010-04-26 23:19DoctorZuberNote Added: 0005289
2010-04-26 23:19DoctorZuberStatusresolved => needs feedback
2010-04-26 23:19DoctorZuberResolutionno change required => reopened
2010-04-26 23:21DoctorZuberNote Edited: 0005289bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0005289#r1883
2010-04-26 23:45DoctorZuberNote Added: 0005292
2010-04-26 23:45DoctorZuberStatusneeds feedback => assigned
2010-04-27 00:54DoctorZuberNote Added: 0005301
2010-04-27 01:20DoctorZuberNote Edited: 0005301bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0005301#r1891
2010-05-21 06:45Toady OneNote Added: 0007126
2010-05-21 06:45Toady OneStatusassigned => acknowledged
2010-05-23 21:10BeeskeeIssue Monitored: Beeskee
2010-06-02 01:30FootkerchiefNote Added: 0007560
2010-06-05 18:59DoctorZuberNote Added: 0007741
2010-06-05 19:00DoctorZuberNote Edited: 0007741bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0007741#r2882
2010-06-05 19:15DoctorZuberNote Added: 0007742
2010-06-05 19:30DoctorZuberNote Added: 0007743
2010-06-05 19:51DoctorZuberNote Added: 0007745
2010-06-05 20:07DoctorZuberNote Edited: 0007745bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0007745#r2884
2010-06-06 01:08Toady OneNote Added: 0007769
2010-06-06 01:41Toady OneNote Edited: 0007769bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0007769#r2898
2010-06-06 01:42Toady OneStatusacknowledged => resolved
2010-06-06 01:42Toady OneFixed in Version => 0.31.06
2010-06-06 01:42Toady OneResolutionreopened => fixed
2010-06-09 06:45Toady OneStatusresolved => closed
2010-06-09 07:56FootkerchiefStatusclosed => resolved
2010-08-03 12:11BeeskeeIssue End Monitor: Beeskee
2011-04-01 13:25FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0000673

Notes
(0002639)
DoctorZuber   
2010-04-10 13:38   
I fully understand that there is probably some sort of "intended feature" at work here, I am just saying that it seems to be a bit unbalanced.

As things stand now, adjusting the temperature settings in worldgen for normal habitable ranges has little or no effect.
(0002640)
DoctorZuber   
2010-04-10 13:46   
I also know this is related to 0000190

It is however a rather separate issue. This is not about dwarves boiling away into soup this is about having no real control over the temperature in worldgen.

25:75:x:x as used in all the default settings in 0.31.02 generates from scorching to freezing. The same setting in 40d generates from hot to cold.

The only pattern I can find in this effect is that it tends to be to the north south.

it seems to ignore elevation entirely, one map may have a scorching mountain range, the next may have a boiling sea. There's no pattern.
(0003975)
Toady One   
2010-04-17 06:24   
Poles were broken for medium and smaller worlds in 40d, which is why we have wider variations now. The 25 to 75 just controls local variations -- the polar/elevation/etc. effects are added on top of that, and if I remember, there's no way to turn those off right now to create a world without variation of any kind.
(0005289)
DoctorZuber   
2010-04-26 23:19   
(edited on: 2010-04-26 23:21)
Okay, I'm reopening this issue. I recognize that there's a new feature at work here with the north south behavior, but it's behaving... strangely.

More tests.
Did several embarks at 1000:1000:0:0
I checked both north and south embarks, and repeated this test several times.

Here's what happens. On the hot side (north/south) the dwarves burn away instantly, smoke fills the entire screen, game over in seconds. It's also worth mentioning that there are no trees. there's little patches of sand or other soil that are "different" from everything else where the trees should be.

On the cold side, the dwarves are perfectly cozy, no harm whatsoever. Trees grow normally.

Testing again doing a new series at 500:500:0:0

Here on the hot side, things aren't quite as hot, but still very fatal. dwarves bleed to death in seconds. No smoke occurs. No trees grow.

On the cold side, dwarves are perfectly cozy again. Trees grow normally.

Conclusions:
This North/South temperature effect is ENORMOUSLY strong. it's pushing the effective temperature settings up or down by over 500 which is completely absurd.
There's also the issue of trees. Trees are not destroyed by magma. For them to be vaporized pre-embark by the world temperature settings leads me to believe that it's getting very very hot.
(0005292)
DoctorZuber   
2010-04-26 23:45   
Continuing my testing

250:250:0:0
hot side -- fatal, but not quite as fast. Trees are present.

cold side -- safe. trees.


It would be helpful if I knew what the minimum temperature is for it to be "scorching", "hot", "temperate", etc.
(0005301)
DoctorZuber   
2010-04-27 00:54   
(edited on: 2010-04-27 01:20)
I just had a thought. I think this north/south temperature adjustment is a multiplier. A temperature multiple of 0.5 to 1.5 would explain the behavior I'm seeing although I think the range is considerably larger than this.

I'm guessing it's more like 0.25 to 4.0 or so which on a normal temperature range of 25:75:x:x could be spiking the temp to as high as 300 and as low as 6. This is just a theory of course but this could easily explain our problems with dwarf soup and fish not appearing.

This really does need to get looked at. As things are now it's completely impossible to make a mild temperature range.

And, just about any temperature variance at all in the worldgen settings is potentially a recipe for dwarf soup at the wrong edge of the map.
(0007126)
Toady One   
2010-05-21 06:45   
I'm not seeing this with 1000:1000:0:0. Everything is burning up everywhere. What is the full param set? Is there a save? Looks like the polar effect can't be avoided even with zero variance, but I can't see numbers that would get it close to 500 either.
(0007560)
Footkerchief   
2010-06-02 01:30   
Any updates on this one? Can we get a full param set (http://pastebin.com/ [^]) that reproduces the problem in 31.04?
(0007741)
DoctorZuber   
2010-06-05 18:59   
(edited on: 2010-06-05 19:00)
look for trees.

habitable tiles in 1000:1000:0:0 are rare, but they do exist. look for trees and you're likely to find one.

My point is they really shouldn't exist at all with such extreme temperature settings. your polar temperature effect is massively overpowering the temp settings. Am I right in guessing that this is a multiplier ?

As for my world gen settings, I changed nothing except for temperature. It's all factory default world gen settings, mostly in small pocket regions for fast world genning.
(0007742)
DoctorZuber   
2010-06-05 19:15   
I just updated to 0.31.5. As before, I genned a pocket region changing only the temperature to [1000:1000:0:0]. And on the very first region I genned, I inspected the map and quickly found the cold side. It was easy to spot by the tiles that were only "Hot" not scorching. I embarked and was perfectly safe as expected.

Now, I admit, I don't know exactly what temperature "hot" is, but I know it's not the flesh scalding tree vaporizing heat you might expect from a temperature of [1000].

Some polar effect is fine, but this seems pretty extreme to me.
(0007743)
DoctorZuber   
2010-06-05 19:30   
Um.... yea....

v0.31.05
default pocket region
Temperature [10000:10000:0:0]

north side of the map, I find a tile that is merely [WARM]

Double-You-Tee-F
(0007745)
DoctorZuber   
2010-06-05 19:51   
(edited on: 2010-06-05 20:07)
And one last time, mostly for sheer dwarfyness.

v.0.31.05
default pocket region
Temperature [1000000:1000000:0:0]
Yes, that's right. one MILLION.

I don't find any warm or hot tiles this time, but I persist. I notice a pair of [heavy forest] tiles. I try that. As I suspected, it's perfectly safe there. There's ponds full of water, there's animals, and trees, and a pesky rat who's stealing all mah stuffs! I hang out for a while before calling it a day.

Embarking almost anywhere else in the region is instant OMGWTFBBQ!!!!

This one is a bit odd, it's not on a north/south map edge. kind of out in the middle actually.
(0007769)
Toady One   
2010-06-06 01:08   
(edited on: 2010-06-06 01:41)
I was thinking it might have to do with the rain forest effect, but that just decreases the variance based on the humidity. I'll go look around again.

edit: found another instance of the rain forest effect earlier on that is a hard cap. I don't have the sciency chops enough to know exactly when the dampening effect should be overcome by the overall temperature. It's probably fairly complicated. I've just made artificially high temperatures ignore the effect entirely.