0002813: Glass weapons (in traps) are comically ineffective

(0011046)
Cephas (reporter)
2010-07-25 19:24
edited on: 2010-07-25 19:24

I just had a bronze Colossus run through 110+ Exceptional 10x Glass Serrated disk traps without a scratch. While it is understandable that it might not die, the fact that material differences result in complete deflection as opposed to conversion to blunt damage feels like a bug to me.

(0011155)
Rask (reporter)
2010-07-27 06:59

Maybe they are too light to do damage? Green glass balls have a weight of 2, which is twice that of a goblet.

(0011157)
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-07-27 07:09

Huh. I wonder if the density of glass never got updated for the new weight system.

(0011158)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-07-27 08:15

Maybe its time for Toady to put glass up in the raws? AFAIK, they aren't.

(0011163)
Quietust (reporter)
2010-07-27 11:04
edited on: 2010-07-27 11:57

Even a spiked iron ball weighs only 7kg, which works out to about a 10cm diameter sphere plus the spikes (if it was a smooth sphere, it'd be 12cm diameter), which is a pretty reasonable size.

An iron statue weighs 471kg while a glass statue weighs 156kg, which puts glass's density at a perfectly acceptable 2.6g/cm^3.

The fact that a spiked glass ball weighs only twice that of a goblet means that goblets are way too heavy.

(0011166)
hyndis (reporter)
2010-07-27 12:55

Glass in the raws would do it. Probably for balancing purposes make glass be roughly as effective as copper. Glass can have much more of an edge than wood, but not as much of an effective edge as metal due to how fragile glass is. Also glass is heavy. Even if the glass object has no edge or point on it at all the sheer mass of the glass object should cause some hurting.

(0011928)
Quietust (reporter)
2010-08-19 12:46
edited on: 2010-08-19 13:08

Some digging through the game's memory suggests that glass's YIELD and FRACTURE values are only 10000 (making it about as strong as wood) and the STRAIN_AT_YIELD values are all 0 (making it extremely brittle), which may explain why it's so weak. 0003071 also reveals that glass's MAX_EDGE is undefined (i.e. it's random each time you play), though it's not clear what effect MAX_EDGE has during combat.

For those curious, all 3 types of glass have a SOLID_DENSITY of 2600, making it about as dense as any layer stone other than rock salt.

(0011937)
Cryten (reporter)
2010-08-19 17:10

I don't know if its relavent but it seems logical to me that a massive creature made of metal could easily walk over traps full of glass spikes and disks unharmed. I would imagine the creatures copper skin would be something like an quarter of a metre thick making any glass weapon not just one massive giant pile driver scratching even copper given its brittleness *kashatter*.

(0011941)
Shurhaian (reporter)
2010-08-19 18:07
edited on: 2010-08-19 18:29

The thing is that glass is actually VERY HARD. Harder than most metals, and capable of holding a wicked edge - scored and cracked glass is pretty close to a monofilament edge, and is used for slicing sections for viewing in a tunneling electron microscope. To cut glass, you need gemstone(emerald, corundum, or preferably diamond) tools. Hardened steel may work, but I'm not sure the methods available to dwarves could produce that sort of hardening - some degree of quenching and tempering is required, and I can't readily find a reference as to how finely it must be controlled. Either way, at Mohs 6-7, it's harder than annealed steel, or bronze, or whatever else.

We think of glass as weak because it's brittle when extruded in thin sections. A solid mass of glass is actually quite tough - and even if it chips, that just means that you've now exposed a brand new edge. Sharp glass might lose its edge when it hits something like a bronze colossus(or rather, would be left with less projecting "edges", most likely, in the case of a spiked ball), and armor might blunt its effect, but anything relying on solely its surface for protection shouldn't walk away without a scratch. A hit by glass with only yielding material in the way(cloth) should be felt.

(0011953)
deathc4 (reporter)
2010-08-20 03:26

From a sadomasochist's point of view I really like the glass traps the way they are. Goblin runs in, gets about 100 minor wounds, and then takes a slow painful year to die.

That's why you build iron traps beyond the glass ones. The strong get a quick death while the weak suffer.

(0012058)
Cephas (reporter)
2010-08-24 07:17

@deathc4 - Problem is, it doesn't work like that. Goblin runs in, gets about 0 wounds at all due to constant deflection, eventually passes out from exertion due to his or her own attempts at dodging and then wakes up a little later to walk right back out.

(0012174)
knofbath (reporter)
2010-08-27 13:47
edited on: 2010-08-28 21:52

Trap components all do blunt damage, not edged. The issue here is that blunt weapons are currently ineffective.

[edit]
whoops, nvm, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that, must have been too short on sleep, gotta check my facts more

I've been exploiting the lethality of whips in my current traps, that'll probably be fixed whenever the next version hits though

(0012191)
Knight Otu (manager)
2010-08-28 06:34

What makes you think that trap components do blunt damage when they all have the edge tag?

(0013101)
Nidor (reporter)
2010-10-01 14:21

Though it has been around a month since the last post. Had masterwork glass discs with masterwork mechanisms vs an elf merchant that fell unconscious on one. result was 30x deflected by no quality rope reed fiber cloak. So it looks like glass traps are still busted. Shame, was hoping to make the entire fort out of green glass (sans barrels and beds of course).

(0013516)
lolghurt (reporter)
2010-10-26 01:19

interestingly, glass spikes seem to be at least capable of passing through normal clothes.

(0013628)
Cephas (reporter)
2010-11-05 08:27

@lolghurt

Out of curiosity, were these dwarves that you attempted to impale, were the spikes in retractable spike traps, and could you provide some combat logs?

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-07-24 13:34	Cephas	New Issue
2010-07-24 21:05	Cephas	Issue Monitored: Cephas
2010-07-25 19:24	Cephas	Note Added: 0011046
2010-07-25 19:24	Cephas	Note Edited: 0011046	View Revisions
2010-07-27 06:59	Rask	Note Added: 0011155
2010-07-27 07:09	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0011157
2010-07-27 08:15	smjjames	Note Added: 0011158
2010-07-27 08:19	smjjames	Tag Attached: glass
2010-07-27 11:04	Quietust	Note Added: 0011163
2010-07-27 11:30	Quietust	Note Edited: 0011163	View Revisions
2010-07-27 11:57	Quietust	Note Edited: 0011163	View Revisions
2010-07-27 11:57	Quietust	Note Edited: 0011163	View Revisions
2010-07-27 12:55	hyndis	Note Added: 0011166
2010-08-19 12:46	Quietust	Note Added: 0011928
2010-08-19 13:08	Quietust	Note Edited: 0011928	View Revisions
2010-08-19 17:10	Cryten	Note Added: 0011937
2010-08-19 17:52	Logical2u	Relationship added	related to 0003071
2010-08-19 18:07	Shurhaian	Note Added: 0011941
2010-08-19 18:14	Shurhaian	Note Edited: 0011941	View Revisions
2010-08-19 18:29	Shurhaian	Note Edited: 0011941	View Revisions
2010-08-20 03:26	deathc4	Note Added: 0011953
2010-08-24 07:17	Cephas	Note Added: 0012058
2010-08-27 09:16	Beeskee	Issue Monitored: Beeskee
2010-08-27 13:47	knofbath	Note Added: 0012174
2010-08-27 14:07	knofbath	Note Edited: 0012174	View Revisions
2010-08-28 06:34	Knight Otu	Note Added: 0012191
2010-08-28 21:52	knofbath	Note Edited: 0012174	View Revisions
2010-10-01 14:21	Nidor	Note Added: 0013101
2010-10-26 01:19	lolghurt	Note Added: 0013516
2010-11-05 08:27	Cephas	Note Added: 0013628
2011-03-02 09:38	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	child of 0003071
2011-03-09 04:05	Toady One	Status	new => resolved
2011-03-09 04:05	Toady One	Fixed in Version	=> 0.31.22
2011-03-09 04:05	Toady One	Resolution	open => fixed
2011-03-09 04:05	Toady One	Assigned To	=> Toady One
2011-03-23 13:16	Footkerchief	Resolution	fixed => duplicate

Notes
(0011046) Cephas (reporter) 2010-07-25 19:24 edited on: 2010-07-25 19:24	I just had a bronze Colossus run through 110+ Exceptional 10x Glass Serrated disk traps without a scratch. While it is understandable that it might not die, the fact that material differences result in complete deflection as opposed to conversion to blunt damage feels like a bug to me.

(0011155) Rask (reporter) 2010-07-27 06:59	Maybe they are too light to do damage? Green glass balls have a weight of 2, which is twice that of a goblet.

(0011157) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-07-27 07:09	Huh. I wonder if the density of glass never got updated for the new weight system.

(0011158) smjjames (reporter) 2010-07-27 08:15	Maybe its time for Toady to put glass up in the raws? AFAIK, they aren't.

(0011163) Quietust (reporter) 2010-07-27 11:04 edited on: 2010-07-27 11:57	Even a spiked iron ball weighs only 7kg, which works out to about a 10cm diameter sphere plus the spikes (if it was a smooth sphere, it'd be 12cm diameter), which is a pretty reasonable size. An iron statue weighs 471kg while a glass statue weighs 156kg, which puts glass's density at a perfectly acceptable 2.6g/cm^3. The fact that a spiked glass ball weighs only twice that of a goblet means that goblets are way too heavy.

(0011166) hyndis (reporter) 2010-07-27 12:55	Glass in the raws would do it. Probably for balancing purposes make glass be roughly as effective as copper. Glass can have much more of an edge than wood, but not as much of an effective edge as metal due to how fragile glass is. Also glass is heavy. Even if the glass object has no edge or point on it at all the sheer mass of the glass object should cause some hurting.

(0011928) Quietust (reporter) 2010-08-19 12:46 edited on: 2010-08-19 13:08	Some digging through the game's memory suggests that glass's YIELD and FRACTURE values are only 10000 (making it about as strong as wood) and the STRAIN_AT_YIELD values are all 0 (making it extremely brittle), which may explain why it's so weak. 0003071 also reveals that glass's MAX_EDGE is undefined (i.e. it's random each time you play), though it's not clear what effect MAX_EDGE has during combat. For those curious, all 3 types of glass have a SOLID_DENSITY of 2600, making it about as dense as any layer stone other than rock salt.

(0011937) Cryten (reporter) 2010-08-19 17:10	I don't know if its relavent but it seems logical to me that a massive creature made of metal could easily walk over traps full of glass spikes and disks unharmed. I would imagine the creatures copper skin would be something like an quarter of a metre thick making any glass weapon not just one massive giant pile driver scratching even copper given its brittleness kashatter.

(0011941) Shurhaian (reporter) 2010-08-19 18:07 edited on: 2010-08-19 18:29	The thing is that glass is actually VERY HARD. Harder than most metals, and capable of holding a wicked edge - scored and cracked glass is pretty close to a monofilament edge, and is used for slicing sections for viewing in a tunneling electron microscope. To cut glass, you need gemstone(emerald, corundum, or preferably diamond) tools. Hardened steel may work, but I'm not sure the methods available to dwarves could produce that sort of hardening - some degree of quenching and tempering is required, and I can't readily find a reference as to how finely it must be controlled. Either way, at Mohs 6-7, it's harder than annealed steel, or bronze, or whatever else. We think of glass as weak because it's brittle when extruded in thin sections. A solid mass of glass is actually quite tough - and even if it chips, that just means that you've now exposed a brand new edge. Sharp glass might lose its edge when it hits something like a bronze colossus(or rather, would be left with less projecting "edges", most likely, in the case of a spiked ball), and armor might blunt its effect, but anything relying on solely its surface for protection shouldn't walk away without a scratch. A hit by glass with only yielding material in the way(cloth) should be felt.

(0011953) deathc4 (reporter) 2010-08-20 03:26	From a sadomasochist's point of view I really like the glass traps the way they are. Goblin runs in, gets about 100 minor wounds, and then takes a slow painful year to die. That's why you build iron traps beyond the glass ones. The strong get a quick death while the weak suffer.

(0012058) Cephas (reporter) 2010-08-24 07:17	@deathc4 - Problem is, it doesn't work like that. Goblin runs in, gets about 0 wounds at all due to constant deflection, eventually passes out from exertion due to his or her own attempts at dodging and then wakes up a little later to walk right back out.

(0012174) knofbath (reporter) 2010-08-27 13:47 edited on: 2010-08-28 21:52	Trap components all do blunt damage, not edged. The issue here is that blunt weapons are currently ineffective. [edit] whoops, nvm, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that, must have been too short on sleep, gotta check my facts more I've been exploiting the lethality of whips in my current traps, that'll probably be fixed whenever the next version hits though

(0012191) Knight Otu (manager) 2010-08-28 06:34	What makes you think that trap components do blunt damage when they all have the edge tag?

(0013101) Nidor (reporter) 2010-10-01 14:21	Though it has been around a month since the last post. Had masterwork glass discs with masterwork mechanisms vs an elf merchant that fell unconscious on one. result was 30x deflected by no quality rope reed fiber cloak. So it looks like glass traps are still busted. Shame, was hoping to make the entire fort out of green glass (sans barrels and beds of course).

(0013516) lolghurt (reporter) 2010-10-26 01:19	interestingly, glass spikes seem to be at least capable of passing through normal clothes.

(0013628) Cephas (reporter) 2010-11-05 08:27	@lolghurt Out of curiosity, were these dwarves that you attempted to impale, were the spikes in retractable spike traps, and could you provide some combat logs?