0003327: Creatures can pathfind, move and get flow-pushed through submerged fortifications

(0013030)
Heliman (reporter)
2010-09-27 18:07
edited on: 2010-09-27 18:24

Do you have a reproducible save showing this?

EDIT: Found this to be totally Reproducible in arena mode, considering it a bug.

(0013351)
Quietust (reporter)
2010-10-13 13:32

This is actually a longstanding bug - a quick test in Adventurer mode confirms that this was true even in 0.28.181.40d. Note that vertical bars and wall grates do block passage of creatures, but they're also vulnerable to building destroyers.

(0013418)
kuketski (reporter)
2010-10-19 22:17

Confirmed in dwarf fortress mode in 0.31.16.

(0013435)
Narmio (reporter)
2010-10-20 18:03

I remember checking this out in a 40d game, I thought it had to do with liquid flows. Creatures couldn't move through the fortifications naturally, but could be pushed through by flows. Is that consistent with what anyone else has observed? Can that be tested in Arena Mode?

(0013440)
kuketski (reporter)
2010-10-20 22:15

@Narmio
i`ve observed it in 3 of my forts in 31.12, 31.14 and 31.16
and Heliman found this to be totally Reproducible in arena mode, considering it a bug.

(0016453)
Footkerchief (manager)
2011-03-21 14:10

rpetiger posted a save at 0004293: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=4011 [^]

(0016462)
danaris (reporter)
2011-03-21 17:50

I have had dwarves and tame animals pushed through wall grates in .18...

(0023851)
HYBRID BEING (reporter)
2013-02-14 23:56

Not fixed as of v0.34.11.

(0023852)
Quietust (reporter)
2013-02-15 10:00

Narmio: this is NOT what people are observing - indeed, when flowing liquids are involved, the tile generally does NOT contain 7/7 liquid (because it needs to be non-full in order for water to flow into it in the first place).

(0032091)
burned (reporter)
2015-01-27 17:51

I've never thought of this as a bug.

My understanding of what Fortifications in DF represent are akin to battlements.

While something can rest on top of a fortification on the z level above, they do not create floors that you can walk on (nor do I believe they should) like a wall tile does.

To the point, if water is high enough creatures and items should be "pushed through" or more correctly flow between the crenels or over the merlons - which is exactly how it works.

(0033109)
HYBRID BEING (reporter)
2015-10-14 04:11
edited on: 2015-10-14 07:25

@burned
I believe fortifications in DF stand for arrowslits, not merlons, making things like pathfinding, jumping, throwing, swimming, etc. through them a bug. Toady mentioned two days ago that "Old bug fixed with occupancy for units pushed by flows.", gotta make a mental note to test it, when it will be out.

(0034570)
burned (reporter)
2016-01-29 11:32
edited on: 2016-01-29 11:37

@HYBRID BEING

If you look at the procedural castle walls, towers, and keeps that Toady designed in adventure mode - all fortifications are placed on top of walls and towers as battlements. They are never used as arrowslits with walls above them.

When you jump on top of them in adventure mode - you remain on the same z-level.

This indicates to me that this "bug" is intended behavior.

(0034728)
HYBRID BEING (reporter)
2016-02-22 17:15

Well, crenels might be considered arrowslits without floor above them (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Malta_-_Mdina_-_Lorenzo_Calleja_ditch_-_Il-Foss_tal-Imdina_03_ies.jpg [^]), but there is no indication that crenels are big enough for creatures to pass. In the first place, we are talking about a single z-level, if creature can't pass it unsubmerged, then it shouldn't be able to pass it submerged either.
As for the fact that creatures may end up occupying fortification (with a benefit of being able to exit to any direction), I'd go as far as to say it should be considered a bug.
PS: checked again in arena in v0.42.06 - behavior still present, was able to move alligator through a fully submerged fortification.

(0034776)
burned (reporter)
2016-03-01 13:59

But, you can pass through them when they are NOT submerged.

This can be checked when climbing up or down a tower or castle wall in adventure mode. It's worth noting that you remain on the same z-level when you do so.

(0034817)
HYBRID BEING (reporter)
2016-03-09 14:03
edited on: 2016-04-13 06:50

Sorry, i'm not very knowledgeable about adventure mode and how castles look. I tried several configurations in arena and wasn't able to climb into fortification.
What i'm sure, though, is that fortifications should work the same regardless of whether you climb into it, swim through a submerged one or walk through it (in context of single z-level, obviously).
I mean, if there is a hole big enough to fit through on the same z-level, then there should be no problem accessing it without climbing or swimming. But currently fortifications block movement and pathing unless submerged, so we either do away with this or account swimming and climbing through them a bug.

(0035804)
latias1290 (reporter)
2016-08-23 12:39
edited on: 2016-08-23 12:43

Still a bug (or feature? as discussed above) in 43.05.

(0038074)
HYBRID BEING (reporter)
2018-03-29 11:48

Still not fixed in 44.08.

(0038318)
Bumber (reporter)
2018-05-11 11:52
edited on: 2018-05-11 12:46

I think I may have encountered a related bug: 0010400. 7/7 water generated inside a cavern wall below a kobold site. You can swim right through the wall like it isn't there. Draining the nearby water with DFHack makes the wall solid again once the water dips below 7/7.

This would imply the issue is not limited to fortifications. Any tile that somehow ends up with 7/7 fluid could potentially be swum through.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-09-27 07:39	Telarin	New Issue
2010-09-27 11:20	Hieronymous Alloy	Issue Monitored: Hieronymous Alloy
2010-09-27 18:07	Heliman	Note Added: 0013030
2010-09-27 18:24	Heliman	Note Edited: 0013030	View Revisions
2010-10-13 13:32	Quietust	Note Added: 0013351
2010-10-19 22:17	kuketski	Note Added: 0013418
2010-10-20 00:25	kuketski	Issue Monitored: kuketski
2010-10-20 01:43	Naros	Issue Monitored: Naros
2010-10-20 18:03	Narmio	Note Added: 0013435
2010-10-20 22:15	kuketski	Note Added: 0013440
2010-11-16 13:57	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0002160
2011-03-21 14:09	Footkerchief	Summary	Creatures can pathfind and move through fortifications when flooded with water => Creatures can pathfind, move and get flow-pushed through fortifications when flooded with water
2011-03-21 14:09	Footkerchief	Summary	Creatures can pathfind, move and get flow-pushed through fortifications when flooded with water => Creatures can pathfind, move and get flow-pushed through submerged fortifications
2011-03-21 14:09	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0004293
2011-03-21 14:10	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0016453
2011-03-21 15:09	jwest23	Issue Monitored: jwest23
2011-03-21 17:50	danaris	Note Added: 0016462
2012-02-26 07:32	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0005458
2013-02-14 23:33	HYBRID BEING	Issue Monitored: HYBRID BEING
2013-02-14 23:56	HYBRID BEING	Note Added: 0023851
2013-02-15 10:00	Quietust	Note Added: 0023852
2013-02-27 23:32	HYBRID BEING	Tag Attached: creatures
2013-02-27 23:32	HYBRID BEING	Tag Attached: flow
2013-02-27 23:32	HYBRID BEING	Tag Attached: pathfinding
2013-02-27 23:32	HYBRID BEING	Tag Attached: fortification
2013-02-27 23:32	HYBRID BEING	Tag Attached: submerged
2014-01-27 14:50	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0003131
2014-01-27 14:51	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	has duplicate 0003131
2014-01-27 14:52	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	has duplicate 0003131
2014-01-27 14:53	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0005512
2014-01-27 14:54	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0003912
2014-08-04 09:43	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	has duplicate 0002160
2015-01-27 17:51	burned	Note Added: 0032091
2015-05-25 22:56	CLuther88	Note Added: 0032734
2015-05-25 22:58	CLuther88	Note Edited: 0032734	View Revisions
2015-05-25 22:58	CLuther88	Note Edited: 0032734	View Revisions
2015-05-25 22:59	CLuther88	Note Edited: 0032734	View Revisions
2015-05-25 22:59	CLuther88	Note Edited: 0032734	View Revisions
2015-05-25 23:02	CLuther88	Note Deleted: 0032734
2015-10-14 04:11	HYBRID BEING	Note Added: 0033109
2015-10-14 07:25	HYBRID BEING	Note Edited: 0033109	View Revisions
2016-01-29 11:32	burned	Note Added: 0034570
2016-01-29 11:34	burned	Note Edited: 0034570	View Revisions
2016-01-29 11:36	burned	Note Edited: 0034570	View Revisions
2016-01-29 11:37	burned	Note Edited: 0034570	View Revisions
2016-02-22 17:15	HYBRID BEING	Note Added: 0034728
2016-03-01 13:59	burned	Note Added: 0034776
2016-03-09 14:03	HYBRID BEING	Note Added: 0034817
2016-03-09 14:06	HYBRID BEING	Note Edited: 0034817	View Revisions
2016-03-09 14:07	HYBRID BEING	Note Edited: 0034817	View Revisions
2016-04-13 06:50	HYBRID BEING	Note Edited: 0034817	View Revisions
2016-08-23 12:39	latias1290	Note Added: 0035804
2016-08-23 12:43	latias1290	Note Edited: 0035804	View Revisions
2018-01-02 23:06	burned	Issue Monitored: burned
2018-03-29 11:48	HYBRID BEING	Note Added: 0038074
2018-04-16 10:26	Huntthetroll	Issue Monitored: Huntthetroll
2018-05-11 11:52	Bumber	Note Added: 0038318
2018-05-11 11:53	Bumber	Note Edited: 0038318	View Revisions
2018-05-11 12:46	Bumber	Note Edited: 0038318	View Revisions

Notes
(0013030) Heliman (reporter) 2010-09-27 18:07 edited on: 2010-09-27 18:24	Do you have a reproducible save showing this? EDIT: Found this to be totally Reproducible in arena mode, considering it a bug.

(0013351) Quietust (reporter) 2010-10-13 13:32	This is actually a longstanding bug - a quick test in Adventurer mode confirms that this was true even in 0.28.181.40d. Note that vertical bars and wall grates do block passage of creatures, but they're also vulnerable to building destroyers.

(0013418) kuketski (reporter) 2010-10-19 22:17	Confirmed in dwarf fortress mode in 0.31.16.

(0013435) Narmio (reporter) 2010-10-20 18:03	I remember checking this out in a 40d game, I thought it had to do with liquid flows. Creatures couldn't move through the fortifications naturally, but could be pushed through by flows. Is that consistent with what anyone else has observed? Can that be tested in Arena Mode?

(0013440) kuketski (reporter) 2010-10-20 22:15	@Narmio i`ve observed it in 3 of my forts in 31.12, 31.14 and 31.16 and Heliman found this to be totally Reproducible in arena mode, considering it a bug.

(0016453) Footkerchief (manager) 2011-03-21 14:10	rpetiger posted a save at 0004293: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=4011 [^]

(0016462) danaris (reporter) 2011-03-21 17:50	I have had dwarves and tame animals pushed through wall grates in .18...

(0023851) HYBRID BEING (reporter) 2013-02-14 23:56	Not fixed as of v0.34.11.

(0023852) Quietust (reporter) 2013-02-15 10:00	Narmio: this is NOT what people are observing - indeed, when flowing liquids are involved, the tile generally does NOT contain 7/7 liquid (because it needs to be non-full in order for water to flow into it in the first place).

(0032091) burned (reporter) 2015-01-27 17:51	I've never thought of this as a bug. My understanding of what Fortifications in DF represent are akin to battlements. While something can rest on top of a fortification on the z level above, they do not create floors that you can walk on (nor do I believe they should) like a wall tile does. To the point, if water is high enough creatures and items should be "pushed through" or more correctly flow between the crenels or over the merlons - which is exactly how it works.

(0033109) HYBRID BEING (reporter) 2015-10-14 04:11 edited on: 2015-10-14 07:25	@burned I believe fortifications in DF stand for arrowslits, not merlons, making things like pathfinding, jumping, throwing, swimming, etc. through them a bug. Toady mentioned two days ago that "Old bug fixed with occupancy for units pushed by flows.", gotta make a mental note to test it, when it will be out.

(0034570) burned (reporter) 2016-01-29 11:32 edited on: 2016-01-29 11:37	@HYBRID BEING If you look at the procedural castle walls, towers, and keeps that Toady designed in adventure mode - all fortifications are placed on top of walls and towers as battlements. They are never used as arrowslits with walls above them. When you jump on top of them in adventure mode - you remain on the same z-level. This indicates to me that this "bug" is intended behavior.

(0034728) HYBRID BEING (reporter) 2016-02-22 17:15	Well, crenels might be considered arrowslits without floor above them (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Malta_-_Mdina_-_Lorenzo_Calleja_ditch_-_Il-Foss_tal-Imdina_03_ies.jpg [^]), but there is no indication that crenels are big enough for creatures to pass. In the first place, we are talking about a single z-level, if creature can't pass it unsubmerged, then it shouldn't be able to pass it submerged either. As for the fact that creatures may end up occupying fortification (with a benefit of being able to exit to any direction), I'd go as far as to say it should be considered a bug. PS: checked again in arena in v0.42.06 - behavior still present, was able to move alligator through a fully submerged fortification.

(0034776) burned (reporter) 2016-03-01 13:59	But, you can pass through them when they are NOT submerged. This can be checked when climbing up or down a tower or castle wall in adventure mode. It's worth noting that you remain on the same z-level when you do so.

(0034817) HYBRID BEING (reporter) 2016-03-09 14:03 edited on: 2016-04-13 06:50	Sorry, i'm not very knowledgeable about adventure mode and how castles look. I tried several configurations in arena and wasn't able to climb into fortification. What i'm sure, though, is that fortifications should work the same regardless of whether you climb into it, swim through a submerged one or walk through it (in context of single z-level, obviously). I mean, if there is a hole big enough to fit through on the same z-level, then there should be no problem accessing it without climbing or swimming. But currently fortifications block movement and pathing unless submerged, so we either do away with this or account swimming and climbing through them a bug.

(0035804) latias1290 (reporter) 2016-08-23 12:39 edited on: 2016-08-23 12:43	Still a bug (or feature? as discussed above) in 43.05.

(0038074) HYBRID BEING (reporter) 2018-03-29 11:48	Still not fixed in 44.08.

(0038318) Bumber (reporter) 2018-05-11 11:52 edited on: 2018-05-11 12:46	I think I may have encountered a related bug: 0010400. 7/7 water generated inside a cavern wall below a kobold site. You can swim right through the wall like it isn't there. Draining the nearby water with DFHack makes the wall solid again once the water dips below 7/7. This would imply the issue is not limited to fortifications. Any tile that somehow ends up with 7/7 fluid could potentially be swum through.