0000036: Channeling creates ramps - Dwarf Fortress Bug Tracker

(0000035)
dualR (reporter)
2010-04-01 16:52

I assumed this was a new feature

(0000059)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-01 18:15

I hope it's not. It's annoying.

(0000087)
livingdeadbeat (reporter)
2010-04-01 21:18

Channeling brook tiles also creates ramps, and leaves stones.

(0000088)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-01 21:27

leaving stone from channeling a brook tile isn't news. The ramps will prove troublesome however.

(0000091)
SirPenguin (reporter)
2010-04-01 21:36

Most likely a new feature, similar to the downward stair "fix". It enables us to easily dig downwards (remember that downward ramps were impossible to make before) to access caverns.

(0000093)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-01 21:37
edited on: 2010-04-01 21:40

Feature or not, I don't like it. If it's intended to be a feature add a downward ramp command. don't change channel. The last thing I want is getting stuck with having to have ramps everywhere leading into my magma. Yikes.

(0000100)
evileeyore (reporter)
2010-04-01 22:11

@ SirPenguin

Not sure what you mean by "downward ramps were impossible to make".

In 40d (the only version I am familiar with) I routinely started a dig with "downward" ramps (by this I mean I designated ramps at 1 z level down).

But I agree with the consensus, Channeling should Channel.

(0000104)
garanis (reporter)
2010-04-01 22:26

If it is a new feature, it most certainly does not work consistently. Sometimes I get a bunch of ramps, and sometimes I get channels. I think I get channels when there is an existing adjacent stair, and ramps when there is no adjacent stair.

(0000131)
Kaosubaloo (reporter)
2010-04-02 00:38

From what I can tell, it creates ramps to emulate a cliff face.

That is to say, if you did a channel and there is an adjacent wall, it will create a ramp, otherwise it won't. Also, there is obviously no ramp when you channel above an empty space. As for whether this is a feature or a bug, I can't say, but those are the circumstances that it seems to happen in. (I like it, myself)

(0000162)
Kaelem Gaen (reporter)
2010-04-02 07:21

I've ran into this myself as well, however I did notice if you channel out in a square or pattern, any of the ramps in the middle of the rectangle/square will fall down without setting off a cave-in alert, at least it didn't for me.

(0000191)
Fanghorn (reporter)
2010-04-02 09:04

my thought is that its definetly the workaround for ropes and other means to go downwards. and when you channel a rectangle bigger than 2x2 you will see that only the walls will have ramps. the other ramps will revert to normal ground.

(0000223)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-02 10:20

ooookay. Channeling down is a a very . . . FUN way to explore...

Channel Straight down. When a feature is revealed odds are extremely good that you just channeled into open space and fell. Added bonus points for falling directly into a sea of magma.

I say again. as a feature channeling creating ramps is BAD! It makes it effectively impossible to safely open magma (or water) without leaving at least one ramp into the area.

(0000346)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-02 17:57

Digging straight down using an up and down ladder.
When open space is discovered, the dwarf stops digging and climbs back up.

Digging straight down with ramps.
When open space is discovered, the dwarf falls to his probable death.

Digging straight down using channels.
When open space is discovered, the dwarf falls to his probable death.

The effect is identical to ramping straight down, if this is a feature in some way related to making it easier to access subterranean features it is a very ill conceived one.

Please just roll channels back to doing what they're supposed to do so we can safely access magma and water WITHOUT leaving a tempting ramp into it for dwarves to go play in...

(0000351)
Felblood (reporter)
2010-04-02 18:18
edited on: 2010-04-02 18:19

This can't be the intended design. How are we supposed to build pits like this?

We could already did ramps downward, by designating them on the level they were needed on. We wouldn't need to lose the ability to cut channels for that to be easier.

EDIT: I Can;t punctuate?

(0000461)
Eiba (reporter)
2010-04-03 02:19

This way is fine and it makes more sense too- how could a dwarf dig a hole that he couldn't get to the bottom of, i.e. a channel with sheer walls like the old version? How did he clear out the bottom? If you don't like the ramps you can designate them removed with [d]-[z]. If your miner can't get to the bottom of the ramp (due to liquid or some other issue), how do you expect him to have dug a full channel anyway?

This is actually one of my favorite new features, making channeling large areas sane and safe, and helping to remove the exploit of easily making a shallow ditch that nothing can cross- hardly a bug.

(0000467)
HarryS (reporter)
2010-04-03 03:11

I agree with Eiba. The ramps make sense, and since my dwarfs will no more trap themselves when channeling large areas, there's less micromanaging needed. Unwanted ramps are easy enough to remove.

(0000487)
Kalrirr (reporter)
2010-04-03 06:09

But it's annoying if you want to make a moat. Since you have to do everything 2 tiles wide now in order to remove the upwards ramp that allows anyone to just walk in anyways.

(0000510)
Khamero (reporter)
2010-04-03 07:44

The moat thing can be worked around, and Eiba has a good point. Just build a moat, go down, remove the ramps, build a staircase/ramp up and then build a floor over it. Problem solved.
Removing the ramps can be seen as reinforcing the walls properly as well, if you want to get technical.

(0000512)
Dennislp3 (reporter)
2010-04-03 07:50

I think it needs to stay...its more realistic anyways....I actually found it and instantly embraced it! even designed my fort entrance with this new feature >.>

(0000516)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-03 07:56

I think it's going to drive me nuts. being forced to have that one pesky ramp left behind every time is going to be very irritating.

(0000521)
jfs (reporter)
2010-04-03 08:28

I like the new behaviour. Apart from being more realistic (digging a hole you can't get out of and never entering it??) it also (generally) prevents the problem of a dwarf digging "from the wrong side" and being enclosed in channels.
And yes, it makes it easier/safer to channel out large areas. Previously, if you wanted to channel out a large area the easiest way was to go down a level and designate ramps, but that has the danger of not noticing that there's stuff on the level above that can cause cave-ins. Ramping downwards instead of upwards solves that.

(0000538)
Eagleon (reporter)
2010-04-03 08:51

Would like for this to go. If nothing else, ramps flashing between ^ and 7 constantly inside flows is irritating visual noise that can never be eliminated in certain cases. Add a 'dig downward ramp' designation, but let me dig my pits, regardless of how unrealistic they are.

(0000547)
aimaisan (reporter)
2010-04-03 09:27

I agree with Eagleon, it's not a bad feature in itself, but it is a very annoying change in several ways. If it was split into two options then everyone could be happy.

(0000601)
Newguy12354 (reporter)
2010-04-03 11:35

The chnnel into ramp feature also created a bug for me. As others have said, sometimes it creates ramps and sometimes not. I don't know what the requirements are for the ramp creation, but I had channeled a tile in my fortress to make a water evacuation room for my farming area and while my 3 miners were working on the z-level below(the only entrance to that room being the ramp of the channeled tile), the ramp disappeared, trapping my three miners down there. Luckily they could get out, but disappearing ramps may also be a problem.

(0000654)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-03 14:06
edited on: 2010-04-03 14:08

It won't create a ramp if there is open space below, or if there is an adjacent staircase.

on the subject of "realism". With this mythical property of "realism" scaffolds, or possibly rope ladders would be used to dig the channel allowing workers to escape without being forced to leave a pesky ramp out after completion. These objects could naturally be removed when the construction was complete.

Forget realism, just fix channeling please?

(0000719)
Jiri Petru (reporter)
2010-04-03 17:23

Just popping in I actually considered this the best new feature until I found this report full of complaints :) In previous versions it was impossible to channel larger areas, you alway had to channel only a 1-wide path. I have a habit of digging rooms with several levels and this have made my life much, much easier. I understand it also made digging moats more complicated (2 times as much, to be precise :)), but if I can have only one of them and not the other, I choose area channeling!

(0000732)
Kaelem Gaen (reporter)
2010-04-03 18:02

Yeah I could get behind it being split into two features.

(0000872)
king doom (reporter)
2010-04-04 08:48

If this was made into two features, dig channel and dig downwards ramp, it would turn a crappy bug (not gonna call it a feature, it's too annoying) into something useful. As it is, all the ramps do is cause pathfinding issues, since I'm not sure they connect the two z levels properly, they either get detached from the bottom or the top, and one z level becomes impossible to path to.

(0001140)
Psieye (reporter)
2010-04-05 11:53

I've never had my dwarves fall after channeling. I've discovered cavern open space while channeling and they didn't fall. Nor did they fall when I tapped ponds/brooks to do some irrigation or fill a well.

(0001192)
Warmduscher (reporter)
2010-04-05 13:33

I agree that this is a feature, not a bug. Come on guys, we've adapted to much bigger changes in the past.

(0001201)
Jiri Petru (reporter)
2010-04-05 13:45
edited on: 2010-04-05 13:47

I still can't understand how you can possibly mine out the whole lower level while standing on the top. The old channeling seemed more like an exploit. And the new way isn't actually reducing any options. You just have to get used to a new way of doing old stuff.

I would advice against splitting it to two features, since it would add to the interface clutter, and having two very similar features is very unintuitive for newcomers. Moreover, I would say "clever" features like this one could be used in the future to merge several other features into one, thus reducing the necessary number of things you have to handle to play the game.

Yeah, it's a war between userfriendliness and customisation options, and as such it's a big IMHO. I just felt like expressing my two cents :)

EDIT: And I don't think they dig the square beneath them. They still stand one square next to it.

(0001672)
Kaelem Gaen (reporter)
2010-04-06 21:51

I say it should be two features because, right now it's great for "Area channeling" but sucks for moats, and an attractive looking water diversion stream.

Or maybe if you could channel twice, or over ramps and break down the top and lower layer. So you do it once, get your safety ramps, channel the same tiles again and get a regular channel.

That way you preserve the interface as it is, so less clutter, and can still get your regular channels to, it's just a second step.

(0001790)
Sean Mirrsen (reporter)
2010-04-07 10:37

I like the feature. I would be okay with the split, but only if the C'h'annel designation remained with ramps, and the rampless channel was bound to 'H', as maybe a Trenc'H'. Clearing out large spaces is immeasurably easier with smooth channels.

And seconding the "double channel" proposition, too. That seems to be the best method.

(0002644)
anomaly (reporter)
2010-04-10 14:15

For my purposes this has been massively convenient.

It is far easier and a bit safer to channel out a large area for strip mining using this than the old channel.

(0002649)
Phoebus (reporter)
2010-04-10 14:37

This is a great new feature.
Channeling is no longer a micromanagement chore, and it improves the game's realism by not allowing to dig holes from the outside.
Build a proper (locked/bridged) escape route from your moat/pits, like in real fortresses.

The side-effects of the features, like flashing underwater ramps, are not related to channeling, if flashing underwater ramps are a problem then that problem should be fixed in a similar way to the stairs problem: can't see water level on a ramp tile.

(0002688)
JimboOmega (reporter)
2010-04-10 19:15

I love this feature. I use it all the time.

You can designate whole areas to be channeled out and not have to handhold the dwarves who would otherwise be cutting each other off.

It also makes it harder to get make an impenetrable gap... Not that you can't build walls, of course.

So, I'm all for it.

I also like to designate whole Z levels to be removed with this change :).

(0002690)
Rafal99 (reporter)
2010-04-10 19:38

I love this new channeling too. Less stuck dwarves, more realism.
And if you want unwalkable channel it is still quite easy to do:
-designate channel
-make stairs next to the channel
-when channel is dug, designate it with remove ramp order
-when it is finished build a floor over the downstairs you built to block access below

(0002939)
tiresius (reporter)
2010-04-11 18:36

I can see the reason for the new channelling and how much easier it is to channel out a wide area, but aesthetics-wise it sucks with that last piece flashing water or bit of extra construction for a dwarf to get out of the channel. There must be a way to get a dwarf down into a pit, having him clear out the ramp, and then getting him out of there. Something like a wooden ladder that can be used and then removed from above and stored, like a bucket. But I think ToadyOne didn't add ladders due to the issues they would present. :(

(0002944)
Jimmy (reporter)
2010-04-11 18:50

If this is an intended feature, there's no difference between channels and ramps. Therefore I'd suggest removing channels entirely as a dig designation.

(0003322)
Rafal99 (reporter)
2010-04-13 13:58

How would you remove natural floors that have been mined below without channel designation?
I vote for not changing what we have at the moment.

(0003712)
ilmoran (reporter)
2010-04-15 10:20

I agree with the double channel suggestion. It keeps the ease of letting you designate a large area all at once, but allows you to cleanly make a smooth trench.

For the folks who think you can't dig a channel/trench with sheer walls without getting inside: You could do exactly the double channeling suggestion. First, dig out most of the trench, leaving a ramp to to get yourself out. Then, from the top you collapse the ramp into the bottom of the trench. The ramp shouldn't take up such a signifigant amount of space that it would come close to filling in the trench, and technically you dig a little deeper than you want the final trench to be, so that the ramp has more room to fill into.

(0003813)
JohnLukeG (reporter)
2010-04-16 00:52
edited on: 2010-04-16 00:52

I sincerely hope this is a bug. It has no functional difference to the existing upward ramp designation, besides the Z-level you view while making it.

Please revert it to the normal function. I'm sick of leaving underwater ramps all over my plumbing systems.

(0003820)
Zas (reporter)
2010-04-16 01:29

It is not a bug, and it's kind of makes sense if you come to think about it. Imagine, how would you dig a channel without making a downward slope while you dig? I agree that it makes life more complicated, but it's also more realistic.

(0004713)
ObadiahtheSlim (reporter)
2010-04-23 07:36

If I wanted a ramp, I'd designate a ramp. As it currently is working, if I want to designate a channel to block off ground access, I can't. Not without going back and removing the ramps.

(0005890)
Shukaro (reporter)
2010-05-01 21:18

If this isn't a bug, I don't see the point. There's already an identical function, it's called "Dig Upward Ramp"

(0006246)
MrWiggles (reporter)
2010-05-05 22:46

Yea, this is annoying the heck out of me. Right now I'm dealing with a lot of aquifers and doing spot checks with channels is just not working out as well. Its producing a lot of visual noise and its completely redundant.

There also gonna be times where I can't remove the ramps and I need to make a straight hole down for design looks and other game reasons. (Like skirting a cavern but not breaking it.)

Personally I was fine with the dorf digging straight holes into the ground. I know they just have a pick, but there are simple diging tools for digging holes, like that shovel for digging post holes for fences.

(0006421)
darkfred (reporter)
2010-05-08 12:08

This is different from upward ramp. It clears the space above the channel too. The new feature allows you to create a two-high room with a single designation. Removing the ramps afterwards is no real extra work.

Do you seriously want to go back to designating one square at time so your moat doesn't collapse and kill your miners? Does anyone actually think that that is easier?

There is no downside to this feature. Stop fearing change.

(0006509)
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-05-10 14:01
edited on: 2010-05-10 14:01

For anyone who's still wondering, yes, this was a deliberate change. It would be helpful if everyone directs further discussion of the feature to this Suggestions thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=54520.0 [^]

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-04-01 15:58	Zwebie	New Issue
2010-04-01 16:52	dualR	Note Added: 0000035
2010-04-01 18:15	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000059
2010-04-01 21:18	livingdeadbeat	Note Added: 0000087
2010-04-01 21:27	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000088
2010-04-01 21:36	SirPenguin	Note Added: 0000091
2010-04-01 21:37	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000093
2010-04-01 21:40	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0000093	View Revisions
2010-04-01 22:11	evileeyore	Note Added: 0000100
2010-04-01 22:26	garanis	Note Added: 0000104
2010-04-02 00:38	Kaosubaloo	Note Added: 0000131
2010-04-02 07:21	Kaelem Gaen	Note Added: 0000162
2010-04-02 09:04	Fanghorn	Note Added: 0000191
2010-04-02 10:20	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000223
2010-04-02 17:57	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000346
2010-04-02 18:18	Felblood	Note Added: 0000351
2010-04-02 18:19	Felblood	Note Edited: 0000351	View Revisions
2010-04-02 18:19	Felblood	Issue Monitored: Felblood
2010-04-03 02:19	Eiba	Note Added: 0000461
2010-04-03 03:11	HarryS	Note Added: 0000467
2010-04-03 05:06	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0000162
2010-04-03 06:09	Kalrirr	Note Added: 0000487
2010-04-03 06:10	Kalrirr	Issue Monitored: Kalrirr
2010-04-03 07:41	Footkerchief	Priority	high => normal
2010-04-03 07:41	Footkerchief	Status	new => acknowledged
2010-04-03 07:41	Footkerchief	Category	General => Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Designations
2010-04-03 07:44	Khamero	Note Added: 0000510
2010-04-03 07:50	Dennislp3	Note Added: 0000512
2010-04-03 07:56	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000516
2010-04-03 08:28	jfs	Note Added: 0000521
2010-04-03 08:51	Eagleon	Note Added: 0000538
2010-04-03 09:27	aimaisan	Note Added: 0000547
2010-04-03 09:42	Footkerchief	Status	acknowledged => new
2010-04-03 11:35	Newguy12354	Note Added: 0000601
2010-04-03 11:54	Aquillion	Tag Attached: channel
2010-04-03 11:54	Aquillion	Tag Attached: ramps
2010-04-03 14:06	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000654
2010-04-03 14:08	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0000654	View Revisions
2010-04-03 17:20	Anydwarf	Issue Monitored: Anydwarf
2010-04-03 17:23	Jiri Petru	Note Added: 0000719
2010-04-03 18:02	Kaelem Gaen	Note Added: 0000732
2010-04-04 08:48	king doom	Note Added: 0000872
2010-04-05 11:53	Psieye	Note Added: 0001140
2010-04-05 13:33	Warmduscher	Note Added: 0001192
2010-04-05 13:45	Jiri Petru	Note Added: 0001201
2010-04-05 13:46	Jiri Petru	Note Edited: 0001201	View Revisions
2010-04-05 13:47	Jiri Petru	Note Edited: 0001201	View Revisions
2010-04-06 21:51	Kaelem Gaen	Note Added: 0001672
2010-04-07 10:37	Sean Mirrsen	Note Added: 0001790
2010-04-07 13:06	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000732
2010-04-10 14:15	anomaly	Note Added: 0002644
2010-04-10 14:37	Phoebus	Note Added: 0002649
2010-04-10 19:15	JimboOmega	Note Added: 0002688
2010-04-10 19:38	Rafal99	Note Added: 0002690
2010-04-11 18:36	tiresius	Note Added: 0002939
2010-04-11 18:50	Jimmy	Note Added: 0002944
2010-04-13 13:37	Footkerchief	Summary	Channeling creats ramps => Channeling creates ramps
2010-04-13 13:58	Rafal99	Note Added: 0003322
2010-04-15 10:20	ilmoran	Note Added: 0003712
2010-04-16 00:52	JohnLukeG	Note Added: 0003813
2010-04-16 00:52	JohnLukeG	Note Edited: 0003813	View Revisions
2010-04-16 01:29	Zas	Note Added: 0003820
2010-04-18 12:26	ntp	Issue Monitored: ntp
2010-04-19 07:01	Jimmy	Issue Monitored: Jimmy
2010-04-19 09:54	bicker x 2	Issue Monitored: bicker x 2
2010-04-19 10:15	metawhat	Issue Monitored: metawhat
2010-04-23 07:36	ObadiahtheSlim	Note Added: 0004713
2010-04-23 07:58	Another	Issue Monitored: Another
2010-04-26 20:10	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000215
2010-05-01 21:18	Shukaro	Note Added: 0005890
2010-05-01 23:18	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0001685
2010-05-05 22:46	MrWiggles	Note Added: 0006246
2010-05-08 09:23	Shukaro	Issue Monitored: Shukaro
2010-05-08 12:08	darkfred	Note Added: 0006421
2010-05-10 13:33	darkfred	Issue Monitored: darkfred
2010-05-10 13:59	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: Intentional?
2010-05-10 14:01	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0006509
2010-05-10 14:01	Footkerchief	Note Edited: 0006509	View Revisions
2010-07-12 12:03	Footkerchief	Tag Renamed	Intentional? => Intentional/Expected?
2011-03-05 10:59	Footkerchief	Status	new => resolved
2011-03-05 10:59	Footkerchief	Resolution	open => no change required
2011-03-05 10:59	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Footkerchief
2011-03-05 11:00	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	related to 0000732
2011-03-06 16:01	Another	Issue End Monitor: Another
2016-02-21 20:31	Felblood	Issue End Monitor: Felblood

Notes
(0000035) dualR (reporter) 2010-04-01 16:52	I assumed this was a new feature

(0000059) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-01 18:15	I hope it's not. It's annoying.

(0000087) livingdeadbeat (reporter) 2010-04-01 21:18	Channeling brook tiles also creates ramps, and leaves stones.

(0000088) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-01 21:27	leaving stone from channeling a brook tile isn't news. The ramps will prove troublesome however.

(0000091) SirPenguin (reporter) 2010-04-01 21:36	Most likely a new feature, similar to the downward stair "fix". It enables us to easily dig downwards (remember that downward ramps were impossible to make before) to access caverns.

(0000093) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-01 21:37 edited on: 2010-04-01 21:40	Feature or not, I don't like it. If it's intended to be a feature add a downward ramp command. don't change channel. The last thing I want is getting stuck with having to have ramps everywhere leading into my magma. Yikes.

(0000100) evileeyore (reporter) 2010-04-01 22:11	@ SirPenguin Not sure what you mean by "downward ramps were impossible to make". In 40d (the only version I am familiar with) I routinely started a dig with "downward" ramps (by this I mean I designated ramps at 1 z level down). But I agree with the consensus, Channeling should Channel.

(0000104) garanis (reporter) 2010-04-01 22:26	If it is a new feature, it most certainly does not work consistently. Sometimes I get a bunch of ramps, and sometimes I get channels. I think I get channels when there is an existing adjacent stair, and ramps when there is no adjacent stair.

(0000131) Kaosubaloo (reporter) 2010-04-02 00:38	From what I can tell, it creates ramps to emulate a cliff face. That is to say, if you did a channel and there is an adjacent wall, it will create a ramp, otherwise it won't. Also, there is obviously no ramp when you channel above an empty space. As for whether this is a feature or a bug, I can't say, but those are the circumstances that it seems to happen in. (I like it, myself)

(0000162) Kaelem Gaen (reporter) 2010-04-02 07:21	I've ran into this myself as well, however I did notice if you channel out in a square or pattern, any of the ramps in the middle of the rectangle/square will fall down without setting off a cave-in alert, at least it didn't for me.

(0000191) Fanghorn (reporter) 2010-04-02 09:04	my thought is that its definetly the workaround for ropes and other means to go downwards. and when you channel a rectangle bigger than 2x2 you will see that only the walls will have ramps. the other ramps will revert to normal ground.

(0000223) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-02 10:20	ooookay. Channeling down is a a very . . . FUN way to explore... Channel Straight down. When a feature is revealed odds are extremely good that you just channeled into open space and fell. Added bonus points for falling directly into a sea of magma. I say again. as a feature channeling creating ramps is BAD! It makes it effectively impossible to safely open magma (or water) without leaving at least one ramp into the area.

(0000346) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-02 17:57	Digging straight down using an up and down ladder. When open space is discovered, the dwarf stops digging and climbs back up. Digging straight down with ramps. When open space is discovered, the dwarf falls to his probable death. Digging straight down using channels. When open space is discovered, the dwarf falls to his probable death. The effect is identical to ramping straight down, if this is a feature in some way related to making it easier to access subterranean features it is a very ill conceived one. Please just roll channels back to doing what they're supposed to do so we can safely access magma and water WITHOUT leaving a tempting ramp into it for dwarves to go play in...

(0000351) Felblood (reporter) 2010-04-02 18:18 edited on: 2010-04-02 18:19	This can't be the intended design. How are we supposed to build pits like this? We could already did ramps downward, by designating them on the level they were needed on. We wouldn't need to lose the ability to cut channels for that to be easier. EDIT: I Can;t punctuate?

(0000461) Eiba (reporter) 2010-04-03 02:19	This way is fine and it makes more sense too- how could a dwarf dig a hole that he couldn't get to the bottom of, i.e. a channel with sheer walls like the old version? How did he clear out the bottom? If you don't like the ramps you can designate them removed with [d]-[z]. If your miner can't get to the bottom of the ramp (due to liquid or some other issue), how do you expect him to have dug a full channel anyway? This is actually one of my favorite new features, making channeling large areas sane and safe, and helping to remove the exploit of easily making a shallow ditch that nothing can cross- hardly a bug.

(0000467) HarryS (reporter) 2010-04-03 03:11	I agree with Eiba. The ramps make sense, and since my dwarfs will no more trap themselves when channeling large areas, there's less micromanaging needed. Unwanted ramps are easy enough to remove.

(0000487) Kalrirr (reporter) 2010-04-03 06:09	But it's annoying if you want to make a moat. Since you have to do everything 2 tiles wide now in order to remove the upwards ramp that allows anyone to just walk in anyways.

(0000510) Khamero (reporter) 2010-04-03 07:44	The moat thing can be worked around, and Eiba has a good point. Just build a moat, go down, remove the ramps, build a staircase/ramp up and then build a floor over it. Problem solved. Removing the ramps can be seen as reinforcing the walls properly as well, if you want to get technical.

(0000512) Dennislp3 (reporter) 2010-04-03 07:50	I think it needs to stay...its more realistic anyways....I actually found it and instantly embraced it! even designed my fort entrance with this new feature >.>

(0000516) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-03 07:56	I think it's going to drive me nuts. being forced to have that one pesky ramp left behind every time is going to be very irritating.

(0000521) jfs (reporter) 2010-04-03 08:28	I like the new behaviour. Apart from being more realistic (digging a hole you can't get out of and never entering it??) it also (generally) prevents the problem of a dwarf digging "from the wrong side" and being enclosed in channels. And yes, it makes it easier/safer to channel out large areas. Previously, if you wanted to channel out a large area the easiest way was to go down a level and designate ramps, but that has the danger of not noticing that there's stuff on the level above that can cause cave-ins. Ramping downwards instead of upwards solves that.

(0000538) Eagleon (reporter) 2010-04-03 08:51	Would like for this to go. If nothing else, ramps flashing between ^ and 7 constantly inside flows is irritating visual noise that can never be eliminated in certain cases. Add a 'dig downward ramp' designation, but let me dig my pits, regardless of how unrealistic they are.

(0000547) aimaisan (reporter) 2010-04-03 09:27	I agree with Eagleon, it's not a bad feature in itself, but it is a very annoying change in several ways. If it was split into two options then everyone could be happy.

(0000601) Newguy12354 (reporter) 2010-04-03 11:35	The chnnel into ramp feature also created a bug for me. As others have said, sometimes it creates ramps and sometimes not. I don't know what the requirements are for the ramp creation, but I had channeled a tile in my fortress to make a water evacuation room for my farming area and while my 3 miners were working on the z-level below(the only entrance to that room being the ramp of the channeled tile), the ramp disappeared, trapping my three miners down there. Luckily they could get out, but disappearing ramps may also be a problem.

(0000654) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-03 14:06 edited on: 2010-04-03 14:08	It won't create a ramp if there is open space below, or if there is an adjacent staircase. on the subject of "realism". With this mythical property of "realism" scaffolds, or possibly rope ladders would be used to dig the channel allowing workers to escape without being forced to leave a pesky ramp out after completion. These objects could naturally be removed when the construction was complete. Forget realism, just fix channeling please?

(0000719) Jiri Petru (reporter) 2010-04-03 17:23	Just popping in I actually considered this the best new feature until I found this report full of complaints :) In previous versions it was impossible to channel larger areas, you alway had to channel only a 1-wide path. I have a habit of digging rooms with several levels and this have made my life much, much easier. I understand it also made digging moats more complicated (2 times as much, to be precise :)), but if I can have only one of them and not the other, I choose area channeling!

(0000732) Kaelem Gaen (reporter) 2010-04-03 18:02	Yeah I could get behind it being split into two features.

(0000872) king doom (reporter) 2010-04-04 08:48	If this was made into two features, dig channel and dig downwards ramp, it would turn a crappy bug (not gonna call it a feature, it's too annoying) into something useful. As it is, all the ramps do is cause pathfinding issues, since I'm not sure they connect the two z levels properly, they either get detached from the bottom or the top, and one z level becomes impossible to path to.

(0001140) Psieye (reporter) 2010-04-05 11:53	I've never had my dwarves fall after channeling. I've discovered cavern open space while channeling and they didn't fall. Nor did they fall when I tapped ponds/brooks to do some irrigation or fill a well.

(0001192) Warmduscher (reporter) 2010-04-05 13:33	I agree that this is a feature, not a bug. Come on guys, we've adapted to much bigger changes in the past.

(0001201) Jiri Petru (reporter) 2010-04-05 13:45 edited on: 2010-04-05 13:47	I still can't understand how you can possibly mine out the whole lower level while standing on the top. The old channeling seemed more like an exploit. And the new way isn't actually reducing any options. You just have to get used to a new way of doing old stuff. I would advice against splitting it to two features, since it would add to the interface clutter, and having two very similar features is very unintuitive for newcomers. Moreover, I would say "clever" features like this one could be used in the future to merge several other features into one, thus reducing the necessary number of things you have to handle to play the game. Yeah, it's a war between userfriendliness and customisation options, and as such it's a big IMHO. I just felt like expressing my two cents :) EDIT: And I don't think they dig the square beneath them. They still stand one square next to it.

(0001672) Kaelem Gaen (reporter) 2010-04-06 21:51	I say it should be two features because, right now it's great for "Area channeling" but sucks for moats, and an attractive looking water diversion stream. Or maybe if you could channel twice, or over ramps and break down the top and lower layer. So you do it once, get your safety ramps, channel the same tiles again and get a regular channel. That way you preserve the interface as it is, so less clutter, and can still get your regular channels to, it's just a second step.

(0001790) Sean Mirrsen (reporter) 2010-04-07 10:37	I like the feature. I would be okay with the split, but only if the C'h'annel designation remained with ramps, and the rampless channel was bound to 'H', as maybe a Trenc'H'. Clearing out large spaces is immeasurably easier with smooth channels. And seconding the "double channel" proposition, too. That seems to be the best method.

(0002644) anomaly (reporter) 2010-04-10 14:15	For my purposes this has been massively convenient. It is far easier and a bit safer to channel out a large area for strip mining using this than the old channel.

(0002649) Phoebus (reporter) 2010-04-10 14:37	This is a great new feature. Channeling is no longer a micromanagement chore, and it improves the game's realism by not allowing to dig holes from the outside. Build a proper (locked/bridged) escape route from your moat/pits, like in real fortresses. The side-effects of the features, like flashing underwater ramps, are not related to channeling, if flashing underwater ramps are a problem then that problem should be fixed in a similar way to the stairs problem: can't see water level on a ramp tile.

(0002688) JimboOmega (reporter) 2010-04-10 19:15	I love this feature. I use it all the time. You can designate whole areas to be channeled out and not have to handhold the dwarves who would otherwise be cutting each other off. It also makes it harder to get make an impenetrable gap... Not that you can't build walls, of course. So, I'm all for it. I also like to designate whole Z levels to be removed with this change :).

(0002690) Rafal99 (reporter) 2010-04-10 19:38	I love this new channeling too. Less stuck dwarves, more realism. And if you want unwalkable channel it is still quite easy to do: -designate channel -make stairs next to the channel -when channel is dug, designate it with remove ramp order -when it is finished build a floor over the downstairs you built to block access below

(0002939) tiresius (reporter) 2010-04-11 18:36	I can see the reason for the new channelling and how much easier it is to channel out a wide area, but aesthetics-wise it sucks with that last piece flashing water or bit of extra construction for a dwarf to get out of the channel. There must be a way to get a dwarf down into a pit, having him clear out the ramp, and then getting him out of there. Something like a wooden ladder that can be used and then removed from above and stored, like a bucket. But I think ToadyOne didn't add ladders due to the issues they would present. :(

(0002944) Jimmy (reporter) 2010-04-11 18:50	If this is an intended feature, there's no difference between channels and ramps. Therefore I'd suggest removing channels entirely as a dig designation.

(0003322) Rafal99 (reporter) 2010-04-13 13:58	How would you remove natural floors that have been mined below without channel designation? I vote for not changing what we have at the moment.

(0003712) ilmoran (reporter) 2010-04-15 10:20	I agree with the double channel suggestion. It keeps the ease of letting you designate a large area all at once, but allows you to cleanly make a smooth trench. For the folks who think you can't dig a channel/trench with sheer walls without getting inside: You could do exactly the double channeling suggestion. First, dig out most of the trench, leaving a ramp to to get yourself out. Then, from the top you collapse the ramp into the bottom of the trench. The ramp shouldn't take up such a signifigant amount of space that it would come close to filling in the trench, and technically you dig a little deeper than you want the final trench to be, so that the ramp has more room to fill into.

(0003813) JohnLukeG (reporter) 2010-04-16 00:52 edited on: 2010-04-16 00:52	I sincerely hope this is a bug. It has no functional difference to the existing upward ramp designation, besides the Z-level you view while making it. Please revert it to the normal function. I'm sick of leaving underwater ramps all over my plumbing systems.

(0003820) Zas (reporter) 2010-04-16 01:29	It is not a bug, and it's kind of makes sense if you come to think about it. Imagine, how would you dig a channel without making a downward slope while you dig? I agree that it makes life more complicated, but it's also more realistic.

(0004713) ObadiahtheSlim (reporter) 2010-04-23 07:36	If I wanted a ramp, I'd designate a ramp. As it currently is working, if I want to designate a channel to block off ground access, I can't. Not without going back and removing the ramps.

(0005890) Shukaro (reporter) 2010-05-01 21:18	If this isn't a bug, I don't see the point. There's already an identical function, it's called "Dig Upward Ramp"

(0006246) MrWiggles (reporter) 2010-05-05 22:46	Yea, this is annoying the heck out of me. Right now I'm dealing with a lot of aquifers and doing spot checks with channels is just not working out as well. Its producing a lot of visual noise and its completely redundant. There also gonna be times where I can't remove the ramps and I need to make a straight hole down for design looks and other game reasons. (Like skirting a cavern but not breaking it.) Personally I was fine with the dorf digging straight holes into the ground. I know they just have a pick, but there are simple diging tools for digging holes, like that shovel for digging post holes for fences.

(0006421) darkfred (reporter) 2010-05-08 12:08	This is different from upward ramp. It clears the space above the channel too. The new feature allows you to create a two-high room with a single designation. Removing the ramps afterwards is no real extra work. Do you seriously want to go back to designating one square at time so your moat doesn't collapse and kill your miners? Does anyone actually think that that is easier? There is no downside to this feature. Stop fearing change.

(0006509) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-05-10 14:01 edited on: 2010-05-10 14:01	For anyone who's still wondering, yes, this was a deliberate change. It would be helpful if everyone directs further discussion of the feature to this Suggestions thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=54520.0 [^]