0009171: Butcher returns of sentient creatures are unusable, regardless of adventurer's ethics

Notes
(0034472) chaosvolt (reporter) 2016-01-19 08:54	Additionally, any reactions modded-in to make use body materials (tanning hides, bonecrafting, etc) refuse to accept body materials from sentient creatures.

(0034798) chaosvolt (reporter) 2016-03-06 18:35	Well that was the briefest bout of monitoring I've seen. :V

(0034800) InfantIguana (reporter) 2016-03-06 22:01	This is true of 0.42.06, as well. I believe that, while non-adventurer members from certain civs (I.e: elven, goblin) should have no problem using the products from butchered sentient creatures, adventurers all follow the same code of ethics as dwarves, regardless of their current civ, and therefore refuse to do the same (they also don't have the option to use sentient creature's bones for carving in 0.42.06). That said, I'm not sure this is a bug so much as the lack of a feature that has yet to be implemented.

(0034802) chaosvolt (reporter) 2016-03-07 09:58	It has been implemented. For most of DF2014 at least, you could freely eat and make use of body materials from sentient creatures. Toady has stated in Future of the Fortress ( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140544.msg6781176#msg6781176 [^] ): "That's right. I didn't remember changing anything relevant, but something apparently happened. I atill haven't looked at what the old behavior was."

(0035303) chaosvolt (reporter) 2016-05-25 15:45 edited on: 2016-05-26 01:28	According to TheFlame52, this is partially fixed. Gorlak brains edible? Yes. Minotaur leather loincloths? No. ;_; EDIT: Flame, not Max. That was a derp on my part.

(0035305) Max_TM (reporter) 2016-05-25 23:02	Wait, did I say that?

(0035306) chaosvolt (reporter) 2016-05-26 01:28	I could've sworn it was you on the forums. In Future of the Fortress, right after I complained about Toady having not mentioned this bug in a while. Wait, no. I am a dummy. It was Flame.

(0035308) Witty (reporter) 2016-05-26 12:19	Aww, guess this explains why I couldn't craft some honorary night creature bone rings from the shadow man I killed.

(0035312) chaosvolt (reporter) 2016-05-27 10:47	One thing that I can blame Max for though, I do recall they mentioned a workaround via giving adventurers a workaround interaction that allows one to temporarily remove "CAN_LEARN" from a targeted creature. I prefer my workaround of removing CAN_LEARN from semi-megabeasts in favor of natural skills, but that doesn't allow making anything from night trolls.

(0035980) Loci (manager) 2016-10-13 13:12	This is not a forum for speculation, comments, or complaints. Please limit your postings in bug reports to information that pertains to the specific bug. For all other messages, please use the forums: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php [^]

(0035990) adamkad1 (reporter) 2016-10-22 08:12	so would this be a fitting place for someone to link to a page containing info how to create workaround interaction?

(0035993) Loci (manager) 2016-10-23 07:32	Yes.

(0035998) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2016-10-25 11:47	I have a page to link from the DF forums in which I have referenced this bug within as part of the content for discussion. It regards a suggestion thread made by myself that i think would remedy this bug as well as a number of other bugs i have additionally referenced under a related root cause. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161228.msg7233258#msg7233258 [^]

(0036117) chaosvolt (reporter) 2016-12-30 18:42	I'm...honestly still questioning if your theories here are even remotely accurate with respect to solving the bug. Thing is, you can butcher and use non-sentients just fine, even megabeasts or named creatures, anything that surely should ALSO be subject to this bug.

(0036153) Scottson (reporter) 2017-01-11 14:31	Experiencing this right now, have found that I can however butcher, eat, craft stuff from undead humans/elves/sentients if I manage to kill then. Is this related?

(0036157) chaosvolt (reporter) 2017-01-11 21:32	Related in that undead seem to be subject to the anomaly where some situations can clear the "taboo" status a given corpse has, like with items generated on NPCs and corpses that show up in lairs or tombs. It's still disappointing that Toady has said "yeah, I know what you're on about and dunno how I broke it" regarding this bug, but then swiftly forgot about this feature regression entirely. ._.

(0036159) PatrikLundell (reporter) 2017-01-12 01:11	The 0.42.X version changed how sapient corpses were handled. Prior to that all dwarven corpses (undead or not) were hauled to the corpse stockpile (as well as pets), while all other corpses (sapient or not) were dumped into the refuse stockpile. Now all sapient corpses are hauled to the corpse stockpile, while all corpses of undead are hauled to the refuse stockpile. Corpses of (formerly) sapient undead no longer inspire horror, so the refuse stockpile can safely be placed beside the trade depot. In fortress mode you can make crafts out of bones resulting from "natural" butchering of undead (typically arms and legs decaying into free bones), but not out of sapients. Again, prior to 0.42.X you could craft from all sapient bones you could acquire without butchering except dwarven ones (and that excluded dwarven undead).

(0036170) chaosvolt (reporter) 2017-01-13 09:56 edited on: 2017-01-13 10:19	This gives a possible cause for the bug, then. I never tested whether you could craft from dwarven bones in older versions actually. If that's true, then unfucking this issue might be more difficult than I thought. EDIT: No, I've been bullshit'd. Results of my testing will follow in next post.

(0036171) chaosvolt (reporter) 2017-01-13 10:25	I'm sorry, but no. You didn't actually test whether this change you cited had any real effect on this issue. http://imgur.com/a/F3dQx [^] I tested it in the version right before .42.01, which would be .40.24. Added a quick "carve arrows from bone" reaction, arena-tested it. Nope. I was able to carve from dwarven bones, in the arena at least. So then I went ahead and created a world to see if maybe arena sorcery was to blame here. Took some wandering to find a fellow dwarf, but... We do not need wild guesses further obscuring the actual cause of this feature regression. However the grave stockpile was handled in this version, it had no effect on what species could be used in reactions.

(0036172) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2017-01-14 00:28	Im thankful you pointed this out chaosvolt, prior to your own test i was running my own and indeed the personally identifiable features are still present, via raw editing & gm-editor, i raw changed myself to a goblin civ and ran a game & embarked with some domestic trolls. This helps me affirm what i found. > Firstmost i gave a troll a legitimate named identity with gm-editor, then via using a bugged interface queued them to be slaughtered, the proceeds of the livestock troll's skeleton (dictated in relation to BP) were named after the troll directly but the organic material was not. When the dead_dwarf true is cleared off the object (a skull) & the object is processed in a bone carver, it returns to a natural state of a 'troll' totem and is usable with no reference to name. If its a problem in relation to BP, then it would affect all of the body (which it does in all products) since all body components (muscles = meat etc) are realistically converted from the BP to provide natural scaling. If you have any more tests &/or speculation please share them within this forum thread as to keep the discussion concise on the topic where the subject matter is already being talked about - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161408.0 [^]

(0036214) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2017-01-24 16:23	What version were you playing on Chaosvolt? As it may be a important milestone in the development of this bug. Can confirm that in 43.05 this bug persists within arena mode (and fortress/adventure mode), if you butcher a sentient (manually in adventure mode or via (k)->(a)) the corpse on death & the butchered product objects will have the setting dead_dwarf=true enabled and also be unusable. Removing the setting using GM-Editor off the corpse first prior to butchery however will allow the products to be used. > In fortress mode, if the ethics are enabled this would also move all the products of a sapient to be usable within your meat/refuse stockpiles etc like a normal creature. This means that BP objects like bones & skulls are personally named (the creatures are given numerically accumilating names in arena mode) when actually the materials are lowercase 'dwarf fat' etc. And without having dead_dwarf=true turned off, the names will carry onto the objects after processing, hence you might get products like "dwarf 1 bone bolts [x amount]" rather than the lowercase normal "dwarf bone bolts [x amount]" I have discussed some of the speculative connections between dead_dwarf=true & the graveyard stockpile (renamed in 0.31.17) in a new post the forum thread i mentioned within my previous note.

(0036215) chaosvolt (reporter) 2017-01-24 16:33	I tested in .40.24, the update literally right before the .42.01 update introduced this bug. As I said, in both arena and adventure mode, dwarven bone usable without issue, strongly suggesting that PatrikLundel was making things up. :V This means that no, any changes to what gets dumped in a graveyard DOES NOT affect this bug, because it had no effect in the version when dwarves were. I'll go to your thread and ask you to commit some !!SCIENCE!! for me, if you can.

(0036217) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2017-01-25 01:04	Well reporting back on the !!science!! as a successful link between dead_dwarf=true & the graveyard (natural dead_dwarf=false bodies in worldsite tombs are sorted into refuse rather than graveyard, meaning that the graveyard generates dead_dwarf=true for corpses sorted into it to protect them) I personally suggest investigating the cause, and checking the syntax since the graveyard stockpile ("corpses") shares a common name with the refuse stockpile ("corpses"). I can't find any particular changelog notes that seem fishy (unless it was a under the hood secret change), but between 42.xx & 40.xx some change did happen and this is what PatrickLundell is referring to with corpses being re-sorted into the graveyard. What may or may not have happened is speculation at the moment without a comment or elaboration from toady. I personally believe PatrickLundell's word and wouldn't go as far as to claim they fabricated the story and more that if they are wrong in a respect (and with respect), they aren't armed with all the nessecary facts they need for this difficult to pin down bug. Loading up a compatible version of DFhack & testing the relation to the graveyard stockpile on version .40.24 & 42.01 using gm-editor would provide more detailed results but no (compatible only linux 40.24) versions of that exist on the Ddepot to try at this current time.

(0036218) PatrikLundell (reporter) 2017-01-25 01:49	@chaosvolt: I object to being called a liar. I have personally seen what I reported, and I clearly stated it was fortress mode information. Over and out.

(0036219) chaosvolt (reporter) 2017-01-25 09:32	@PatrikLundell: Sorry for that. Last I checked fortress mode behavior has ALWAYS differed from adventure mode behavior in that regard. Namely you can't even attempt butchering a taboo corpse in fortress mode, if I recall. Fortress mode behavior should not be used as an indicator of adventure mode behavior. My assumption here with your findings is that NOW we have an apparent link between whatever is causing this bug, and whatever caused the change in stockpiling behavior. The problem is that this link doesn't seem to exist in 40.24. Again, sorry for getting so pissy about it, however.

(0036321) chaosvolt (reporter) 2017-03-15 23:07	Any other known data on possible causes, now that it's been confirmed assigned? Though I'd love to know how it took so long to be "confirmed" when toady himself acknowledged the existence of the bug way the hell back in December 2015 ( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140544.msg6700479;topicseen#msg6700479 [^] ).

(0037954) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2018-03-17 10:38 edited on: 2018-03-17 10:46	@Chaosvolt After the Merman bone farm incident that prompted the change to ethics I doubt its very high on toady's list of bugs to fix though acknowledged. It still presents minor challenges in vanilla though, as elf civilisation roleplayers can't eat their combatants afterwards. I managed to workaround the issue using this slightly convoluted method, DFhack is usually frowned upon, but a combination of using the stockpile editor controls to unset rotted status from how items are read in the pile & remove the dead_dwarf=true so they are moved into a regular corpse pile where appliable, then the materials harvested from that body will be used and create normal creature products. This suggests that all sentient/pet creatures when they are sent to the civilian graveyard are presented as 'rotting' (contrary to actual body status, perfectly fine meat from a illicit slaughtered animal will go to the refuse meat pile) and dead_dwarf=true, and the modder would need to remove both of these statuses to use. This in many ways would be a small behind the scenes cleanup of stockpile code, because workshops can't take rotten goods whether they are actually rotting or just flagged up in the stockpile implicitly to be, so dwarves don't take erroneously from the graveyard i imagine. Here i use this method to use the materials of slaughtered work animals, with names which usually wouldn't be usable materials: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161408.msg7488068#msg7488068 [^] Histfig names & associations are unset after the craftsman is finished making a totem of a pet dog's skull.

(0037956) chaosvolt (reporter) 2018-03-17 11:06	Given, if I recall, the glorious era of adventure-mode cannibalism occurred after the nerf to merpeople bones... There are also raw-based workarounds. Max, if I recall correctly, devised an interaction that temporarily removes CAN_LEARN from a target. I've been tempted to include it in Adventurecraft but never got around to asking about it.

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Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2015-12-02 12:46	chaosvolt	New Issue
2015-12-02 12:50	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: 0.42.01
2015-12-02 12:50	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: adventure mode
2015-12-02 12:50	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: butcher
2015-12-02 12:50	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: cannibalism
2015-12-02 12:50	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: ethics
2015-12-02 12:50	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: meat
2016-01-19 08:54	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0034472
2016-03-02 10:12	Zagamun	Issue Monitored: Zagamun
2016-03-02 10:12	Zagamun	Issue End Monitor: Zagamun
2016-03-06 18:35	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0034798
2016-03-06 22:01	InfantIguana	Note Added: 0034800
2016-03-07 09:58	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0034802
2016-03-09 09:01	sv-esk	Issue Monitored: sv-esk
2016-05-25 15:45	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0035303
2016-05-25 23:02	Max_TM	Note Added: 0035305
2016-05-26 01:28	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0035306
2016-05-26 01:28	chaosvolt	Note Edited: 0035303	View Revisions
2016-05-26 12:19	Witty	Note Added: 0035308
2016-05-27 10:47	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0035312
2016-06-19 22:48	TheCrazyHamsteR	Issue Monitored: TheCrazyHamsteR
2016-10-07 15:31	adamkad1	Note Added: 0035963
2016-10-07 15:38	adamkad1	Note Edited: 0035963	View Revisions
2016-10-07 15:44	adamkad1	Note Edited: 0035963	View Revisions
2016-10-12 13:50	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0035975
2016-10-13 13:12	Loci	Note Added: 0035980
2016-10-13 13:13	Loci	Note Edited: 0035963	View Revisions
2016-10-13 13:13	Loci	Note Edited: 0035975	View Revisions
2016-10-22 08:12	adamkad1	Note Added: 0035990
2016-10-22 08:12	adamkad1	Note Deleted: 0035963
2016-10-23 07:32	Loci	Note Added: 0035993
2016-10-23 10:00	chaosvolt	Note Deleted: 0035975
2016-10-25 11:47	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0035998
2016-12-30 18:42	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0036117
2017-01-02 14:12	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0036125
2017-01-02 15:19	FantasticDorf	Note Deleted: 0036125
2017-01-11 14:31	Scottson	Note Added: 0036153
2017-01-11 21:32	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0036157
2017-01-12 01:11	PatrikLundell	Note Added: 0036159
2017-01-13 09:56	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0036170
2017-01-13 10:19	chaosvolt	Note Edited: 0036170	View Revisions
2017-01-13 10:25	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0036171
2017-01-14 00:28	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0036172
2017-01-24 16:23	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0036214
2017-01-24 16:33	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0036215
2017-01-25 01:04	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0036217
2017-01-25 01:49	PatrikLundell	Note Added: 0036218
2017-01-25 09:32	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0036219
2017-03-10 16:00	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0009561
2017-03-15 13:00	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Footkerchief
2017-03-15 13:00	Footkerchief	Status	new => confirmed
2017-03-15 16:57	Ziusudra	Issue Monitored: Ziusudra
2017-03-15 23:07	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0036321
2017-06-08 19:08	Huntthetroll	Issue Monitored: Huntthetroll
2017-08-03 05:57	park66665	Issue Monitored: park66665
2018-03-17 10:38	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0037954
2018-03-17 10:46	FantasticDorf	Note Edited: 0037954	View Revisions
2018-03-17 11:06	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0037956
2018-09-09 13:07	Loci	Relationship added	has duplicate 0010895
2024-06-24 04:13	Alburrene	Note Added: 0041383