0006691: Excessive number of necromancer towers.

(0025114)
Dwarfu (manager)
2014-07-08 12:10

Please use a service like Pastebin and post the world-gen parameters for a world where this is occurring.

(0025120)
XxoriginxX (reporter)
2014-07-08 12:29

Well, it's the default worldgen parameters, unmodified. I'm having a surprisingly difficult time attempting to reproduce again, though you can see it all over the forums.

(0025131)
Dwarfu (manager)
2014-07-08 12:57

Well, I'll leave this open for further feedback from other reporters for reproduction. In the future, it'd be more helpful to post links to supporting forum threads.

(0025134)
Dwarfu (manager)
2014-07-08 13:03

here's one:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140079.0 [^]

(0025202)
Dwarfu (manager)
2014-07-08 18:42

And a pic of the situation...

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac11/Mondoshawan/Image1.jpg [^]

(0025213)
palu (reporter)
2014-07-08 19:11

Here's another image: http://i.imgur.com/UaGIyAw.png [^]
1050 years, small world.

(0025269)
Wimopy (reporter)
2014-07-09 02:32

I believe that from the pictures it's also evident that other races spread out way too fast as well. Generally, if I see a mountain range of 30 tiles with a single dwarf site appear on it, I can be sure that nearly all of the mountain's border tiles will be full of dwarven sites in a couple of years.

Same goes for elves. If they appear in a forest, they'll take over it. Even if their population only allows a dozen or so people to live in one retreat (they spread too thin)

(0026687)
cephalo (reporter)
2014-07-16 16:52

For regular civ sites, there's a cap to how many there can be. Obviously it doesn't apply to towers. Not that it should, since towers are rather late comers to a particular world and you don't want them frozen out.

(0027143)
dglidden (reporter)
2014-07-21 09:15
edited on: 2014-07-21 09:15

I've also noticed that necromancers have a habit of taking over the world without reducing the number of, or turning off, secrets. Here is one example of a worldgen I abandoned because of necro over-population. (edit: this is only about 1/3 of the total number of towers in that immediate area, the rest didn't fit into the zone map.)

http://i.imgur.com/gPdOq48.png [^]

Unfortunately I have only anecdotal evidence, but until I set "secrets" to "None", worldgen would always end at year 200, every embark I did had a tower within range, I would often not get even the first caravan, only get one migrant wave, and wind up king within a couple of seasons due to necromancers wiping out my civilization. After disabling secrets, I can generate much longer worlds and get the normal number of caravans and migrants.

This is with a Medium Region under advanced worldgen, but the only things I've modified from defaults are amount of metals and number of volcanoes.

(0027448)
thvaz (reporter)
2014-07-24 13:52

I generated a lot of world without messing with the advanced parameters, and never had this issue, so it looks like is some parameter there that is causing it.

(0027761)
smjjames (reporter)
2014-07-28 07:51
edited on: 2014-07-28 08:03

The number of towers seems reduced in 40.05 to normal levels, can anybody else confirm?

Edit: Did a medium region worldgen of age 200 years and the default number of secrets and I spot 3, maybe 4. So, they aren't proliferating like they were before. I guess it was a side effect of some other issue that got fixed.

(0027763)
thvaz (reporter)
2014-07-28 08:19

It may happen occasionally. I generated about 10 medium worlds until I liked one, and 2 of them were crowded with towers.

One issue more present is how the goblins dominate every world, with sometimes twice the members of the other races put together.

(0027766)
smjjames (reporter)
2014-07-28 08:43

Yeah, did a few more worldgens and they're still kind of proliferating, it depends on a lot of factors. It's not quite as bad as the previous version I think.

(0028401)
Dwarfu (manager)
2014-08-05 15:04

A save may be more helpful than the pics.

(0028828)
smjjames (reporter)
2014-08-11 13:42
edited on: 2014-08-11 14:25

Here's a 40.08 worldgen save (no game active in it) with 26 towers total, default settings for secrets. I included the worldgen param text in the zip.

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9358 [^]

I'll post up a worldgen save soon of one with the secrets set to 1.

Edit: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9359 [^] There are actually even MORE towers than the save with default secrets settings.

Would be nice if that 'worldgen history not being the same each time you regenerate the exact same seed' issue was fixed so that we could reliably compare saves using the same worldgen.

(0029353)
Dame de la Licorne (reporter)
2014-08-20 07:58

Confirming that this is still an issue in .40.09.

(0029882)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-09-01 19:27

Reopening due to 0008218.
Save: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9591 [^]
Screenshot: http://tinypic.com/r/15649dj/8 [^]

(0029884)
smjjames (reporter)
2014-09-01 19:52

Someone did post a picture of an absolutely ABSURD number of towers, but I don't know what worldgen parameters that person used. I could try to find that screenshot, but it won't help without the worldgen parameters and the version used.

I have noticed that they would occasionally proliferate a bit, but it didn't seem much different from the higher end of the number of towers that 34.11 could generate. I usually set the towers to a low number or off in 34.11, so I don't remember exactly.

(0029899)
Toady One (administrator)
2014-09-02 11:55

Fortunately the parameters on the latest save reproduced various problems -- the towers were still engaging in fake grazing disputes, which caused them to create administrator necros over conquered towns that quickly tired of their jobs and made new towers. There was also a town master-apprentice explosion that chained several towers. Both of those things generally have a future (one even was the basis for an old devlog story), but for now I'm going to turn them off for necros and revert them to note form since it is too confusing.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2014-07-08 12:03	XxoriginxX	New Issue
2014-07-08 12:10	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0025114
2014-07-08 12:10	Dwarfu	Assigned To	=> Dwarfu
2014-07-08 12:10	Dwarfu	Status	new => needs feedback
2014-07-08 12:29	XxoriginxX	Note Added: 0025120
2014-07-08 12:29	XxoriginxX	Status	needs feedback => assigned
2014-07-08 12:57	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0025131
2014-07-08 12:57	Dwarfu	Status	assigned => needs feedback
2014-07-08 13:03	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0025134
2014-07-08 18:42	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0025202
2014-07-08 19:11	palu	Note Added: 0025213
2014-07-09 02:32	Wimopy	Note Added: 0025269
2014-07-11 02:48	Knight Otu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0007042
2014-07-14 11:33	Footkerchief	Status	needs feedback => acknowledged
2014-07-16 16:52	cephalo	Note Added: 0026687
2014-07-21 09:15	dglidden	Note Added: 0027143
2014-07-21 09:15	dglidden	Note Edited: 0027143	View Revisions
2014-07-24 13:29	dglidden	Issue Monitored: dglidden
2014-07-24 13:52	thvaz	Note Added: 0027448
2014-07-28 07:51	smjjames	Note Added: 0027761
2014-07-28 07:52	smjjames	Note Edited: 0027761	View Revisions
2014-07-28 08:03	smjjames	Note Edited: 0027761	View Revisions
2014-07-28 08:19	thvaz	Note Added: 0027763
2014-07-28 08:43	smjjames	Note Added: 0027766
2014-08-05 15:04	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0028401
2014-08-05 15:04	Dwarfu	Status	acknowledged => needs feedback
2014-08-05 15:06	Dwarfu	Relationship added	related to 0007015
2014-08-11 13:42	smjjames	Note Added: 0028828
2014-08-11 14:05	smjjames	Note Edited: 0028828	View Revisions
2014-08-11 14:25	smjjames	Note Edited: 0028828	View Revisions
2014-08-11 21:06	Footkerchief	Status	needs feedback => confirmed
2014-08-20 07:58	Dame de la Licorne	Note Added: 0029353
2014-08-20 11:54	Toady One	Status	confirmed => resolved
2014-08-20 11:54	Toady One	Fixed in Version	=> Next Version
2014-08-20 11:54	Toady One	Resolution	open => fixed
2014-08-20 11:54	Toady One	Assigned To	Dwarfu => Toady One
2014-09-01 19:26	Footkerchief	Status	resolved => confirmed
2014-09-01 19:26	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0008218
2014-09-01 19:27	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0029882
2014-09-01 19:52	smjjames	Note Added: 0029884
2014-09-02 11:55	Toady One	Note Added: 0029899
2014-09-02 11:55	Toady One	Status	confirmed => resolved
2014-09-02 11:55	Toady One	Fixed in Version	0.40.10 => Next Version

Notes
(0025114) Dwarfu (manager) 2014-07-08 12:10	Please use a service like Pastebin and post the world-gen parameters for a world where this is occurring.

(0025120) XxoriginxX (reporter) 2014-07-08 12:29	Well, it's the default worldgen parameters, unmodified. I'm having a surprisingly difficult time attempting to reproduce again, though you can see it all over the forums.

(0025131) Dwarfu (manager) 2014-07-08 12:57	Well, I'll leave this open for further feedback from other reporters for reproduction. In the future, it'd be more helpful to post links to supporting forum threads.

(0025134) Dwarfu (manager) 2014-07-08 13:03	here's one: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140079.0 [^]

(0025202) Dwarfu (manager) 2014-07-08 18:42	And a pic of the situation... http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac11/Mondoshawan/Image1.jpg [^]

(0025213) palu (reporter) 2014-07-08 19:11	Here's another image: http://i.imgur.com/UaGIyAw.png [^] 1050 years, small world.

(0025269) Wimopy (reporter) 2014-07-09 02:32	I believe that from the pictures it's also evident that other races spread out way too fast as well. Generally, if I see a mountain range of 30 tiles with a single dwarf site appear on it, I can be sure that nearly all of the mountain's border tiles will be full of dwarven sites in a couple of years. Same goes for elves. If they appear in a forest, they'll take over it. Even if their population only allows a dozen or so people to live in one retreat (they spread too thin)

(0026687) cephalo (reporter) 2014-07-16 16:52	For regular civ sites, there's a cap to how many there can be. Obviously it doesn't apply to towers. Not that it should, since towers are rather late comers to a particular world and you don't want them frozen out.

(0027143) dglidden (reporter) 2014-07-21 09:15 edited on: 2014-07-21 09:15	I've also noticed that necromancers have a habit of taking over the world without reducing the number of, or turning off, secrets. Here is one example of a worldgen I abandoned because of necro over-population. (edit: this is only about 1/3 of the total number of towers in that immediate area, the rest didn't fit into the zone map.) http://i.imgur.com/gPdOq48.png [^] Unfortunately I have only anecdotal evidence, but until I set "secrets" to "None", worldgen would always end at year 200, every embark I did had a tower within range, I would often not get even the first caravan, only get one migrant wave, and wind up king within a couple of seasons due to necromancers wiping out my civilization. After disabling secrets, I can generate much longer worlds and get the normal number of caravans and migrants. This is with a Medium Region under advanced worldgen, but the only things I've modified from defaults are amount of metals and number of volcanoes.

(0027448) thvaz (reporter) 2014-07-24 13:52	I generated a lot of world without messing with the advanced parameters, and never had this issue, so it looks like is some parameter there that is causing it.

(0027761) smjjames (reporter) 2014-07-28 07:51 edited on: 2014-07-28 08:03	The number of towers seems reduced in 40.05 to normal levels, can anybody else confirm? Edit: Did a medium region worldgen of age 200 years and the default number of secrets and I spot 3, maybe 4. So, they aren't proliferating like they were before. I guess it was a side effect of some other issue that got fixed.

(0027763) thvaz (reporter) 2014-07-28 08:19	It may happen occasionally. I generated about 10 medium worlds until I liked one, and 2 of them were crowded with towers. One issue more present is how the goblins dominate every world, with sometimes twice the members of the other races put together.

(0027766) smjjames (reporter) 2014-07-28 08:43	Yeah, did a few more worldgens and they're still kind of proliferating, it depends on a lot of factors. It's not quite as bad as the previous version I think.

(0028401) Dwarfu (manager) 2014-08-05 15:04	A save may be more helpful than the pics.

(0028828) smjjames (reporter) 2014-08-11 13:42 edited on: 2014-08-11 14:25	Here's a 40.08 worldgen save (no game active in it) with 26 towers total, default settings for secrets. I included the worldgen param text in the zip. http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9358 [^] I'll post up a worldgen save soon of one with the secrets set to 1. Edit: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9359 [^] There are actually even MORE towers than the save with default secrets settings. Would be nice if that 'worldgen history not being the same each time you regenerate the exact same seed' issue was fixed so that we could reliably compare saves using the same worldgen.

(0029353) Dame de la Licorne (reporter) 2014-08-20 07:58	Confirming that this is still an issue in .40.09.

(0029882) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-09-01 19:27	Reopening due to 0008218. Save: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9591 [^] Screenshot: http://tinypic.com/r/15649dj/8 [^]

(0029884) smjjames (reporter) 2014-09-01 19:52	Someone did post a picture of an absolutely ABSURD number of towers, but I don't know what worldgen parameters that person used. I could try to find that screenshot, but it won't help without the worldgen parameters and the version used. I have noticed that they would occasionally proliferate a bit, but it didn't seem much different from the higher end of the number of towers that 34.11 could generate. I usually set the towers to a low number or off in 34.11, so I don't remember exactly.

(0029899) Toady One (administrator) 2014-09-02 11:55	Fortunately the parameters on the latest save reproduced various problems -- the towers were still engaging in fake grazing disputes, which caused them to create administrator necros over conquered towns that quickly tired of their jobs and made new towers. There was also a town master-apprentice explosion that chained several towers. Both of those things generally have a future (one even was the basis for an old devlog story), but for now I'm going to turn them off for necros and revert them to note form since it is too confusing.