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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0001180Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Buildings, Generalpublic2010-04-14 22:122018-08-28 03:56
Reporterkaefermelder 
Assigned ToFootkerchief 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusconfirmedResolutionopen 
PlatformPCOSXPOS Version
Product Version0.31.03 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0001180: Skeletons of sentients and tame animals can't be "butchered" into usable bones
Descriptionmaybe I just fail to give the right order, but only corpses are butchered, no skeletons. It's also not an issue of time - the order gets canceled despite skeletons being nearby. Do I have to dump them right in the WS? What skeletons should, for example, be butcherable?
Steps To Reproducekill an animal or humanoid, forbid till rotten to skeleton, unforbid, haul to refuse pile near butcher, order butchering
Additional InformationI have auto butcher on
Tagschop, decay, Intentional/Expected?
Relationships
related to 0000874new  Dwarves refuse to butcher some corpses (buzzards in particular) 
related to 0002377new  Corpse pieces that are non-processable for ethical reasons don't disappear 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2010-04-14 22:12kaefermelderNew Issue
2010-04-14 22:14Logical2uNote Added: 0003621
2010-04-14 22:54FootkerchiefNote Added: 0003624
2010-04-14 22:54FootkerchiefIssue Monitored: Footkerchief
2010-04-15 07:18kaefermelderNote Added: 0003671
2010-04-15 07:42Logical2uNote Added: 0003678
2010-04-15 08:51Draco18sNote Added: 0003685
2010-04-15 09:05FootkerchiefNote Added: 0003694
2010-04-15 09:05FootkerchiefRelationship addedchild of 0000874
2010-04-15 09:41kaefermelderNote Added: 0003702
2010-04-15 14:25kaefermelderNote Edited: 0003702bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0003702#r1245
2010-04-15 14:27kaefermelderNote Edited: 0003702bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0003702#r1246
2010-04-15 14:27kaefermelderNote Edited: 0003702bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0003702#r1247
2010-04-26 17:33FootkerchiefTag Attached: Intentional?
2010-04-26 17:33FootkerchiefSummaryno skeletons are butchered or processed => Skeletons of sentients and tame animals can't be "butchered" into usable bones
2010-05-03 02:37derigoNote Added: 0005991
2010-05-03 02:40derigoNote Edited: 0005991bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0005991#r2216
2010-05-03 18:43clamityIssue Monitored: clamity
2010-05-04 00:18DoctorZuberNote Added: 0006075
2010-05-04 00:56FootkerchiefNote Added: 0006076
2010-05-04 00:58FootkerchiefNote Edited: 0006076bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0006076#r2262
2010-05-04 01:33derigoNote Added: 0006077
2010-05-04 01:35derigoNote Edited: 0006077bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0006077#r2264
2010-06-14 02:39MrOblongIssue Monitored: MrOblong
2010-06-14 05:59LangdonNote Added: 0008404
2010-07-12 12:03FootkerchiefTag RenamedIntentional? => Intentional/Expected?
2010-07-14 07:28kwielandIssue Monitored: kwieland
2010-07-14 07:32kwielandNote Added: 0010233
2010-07-14 07:38FootkerchiefNote Added: 0010235
2010-07-14 09:58JZEIssue Monitored: JZE
2010-07-15 03:56kwielandNote Added: 0010333
2010-07-20 15:24FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0002377
2010-07-20 15:26FootkerchiefRelationship replacedrelated to 0000874
2010-09-04 10:41tatterdemalianNote Added: 0012402
2010-09-04 18:29dree12Note Added: 0012413
2010-09-19 20:04NidorNote Added: 0012830
2010-09-20 05:02AnotherIssue Monitored: Another
2010-09-20 05:03AnotherTag Attached: decay
2010-10-05 02:03VairIssue Monitored: Vair
2010-10-05 03:37Malibu StaceyNote Added: 0013203
2010-10-26 08:58Malibu StaceyIssue Monitored: Malibu Stacey
2010-10-26 09:25kwielandNote Added: 0013526
2010-10-31 08:50wtferTag Attached: chop
2011-02-16 14:42jwest23Issue Monitored: jwest23
2011-04-06 14:06kwielandNote Added: 0017143
2011-04-06 14:52FootkerchiefNote Added: 0017145
2011-04-07 10:15kwielandNote Added: 0017163
2011-04-07 11:39FootkerchiefNote Added: 0017170
2011-05-03 20:37kwielandNote Added: 0017617
2011-05-03 20:37kwielandNote Edited: 0017163bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0017163#r6553
2011-05-04 14:45DrazinonondaNote Added: 0017627
2011-05-05 17:13NarosIssue Monitored: Naros
2011-05-10 13:51QuietustNote Added: 0017685
2011-05-10 13:52QuietustNote Edited: 0017685bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0017685#r6576
2011-05-10 22:16kwielandNote Added: 0017688
2011-05-29 09:35SeraphIssue Monitored: Seraph
2012-05-19 03:43MorrolanIssue Monitored: Morrolan
2014-01-27 21:33FootkerchiefNote Added: 0024453
2014-07-27 00:35MultipartiteIssue Monitored: Multipartite
2014-11-24 16:33Frogging101Note Added: 0031157
2014-11-24 16:34Frogging101Note Edited: 0031157bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0031157#r12406
2014-11-24 16:34Frogging101Issue Monitored: Frogging101
2014-11-24 16:36Frogging101Note Edited: 0031157bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0031157#r12407
2014-11-24 21:49FootkerchiefAssigned To => Footkerchief
2014-11-24 21:49FootkerchiefStatusnew => confirmed
2017-05-10 07:00AltareeNote Added: 0036513
2017-06-18 01:28FantasticDorfNote Added: 0036620
2017-08-19 13:08Nilsou2Note Added: 0036700
2018-07-28 12:38RobsoieNote Added: 0038644
2018-07-28 12:39RobsoieNote Edited: 0038644bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0038644#r15714
2018-08-25 20:03HairyDudeIssue Monitored: HairyDude
2018-08-28 03:56FantasticDorfNote Added: 0038760

Notes
(0003621)
Logical2u   
2010-04-14 22:14   
If you butcher a skeleton, what do you expect to get out of it? Certainly you won't get any meat...
(0003624)
Footkerchief   
2010-04-14 22:54   
Butchering is supposed to break them up into usable bones.

Do you have the "Dwarves gather refuse from outside" order turned on?
(0003671)
kaefermelder   
2010-04-15 07:18   
Yes, i have "Dwarves gather refuse from outside" order turned on, all other gather/save too.. Plus, the skeletons are inside.

I expect my butcher to do [i]anything[/i] with skeletons. Or [i]someone else[/i] to do anything with them ;)

What precise order do _you_ use? q-a-b or something else?
(0003678)
Logical2u   
2010-04-15 07:42   
I didn't know about the new "Butcher a skeleton" feature, in my defence.
(0003685)
Draco18s   
2010-04-15 08:51   
@kaefermelder: Use HTML tags. Then you can have your italics ;)
(0003694)
Footkerchief   
2010-04-15 09:05   
kaefermelder: unless a burrow assignment is keeping the dwarves from getting to the workshop and/or skeleton, it sounds like you're doing everything right. I would guess this is related to 0000874.
(0003702)
kaefermelder   
2010-04-15 09:41   
(edited on: 2010-04-15 14:27)
Yeah those italics were just jokingly ;)

I think I have solved this one - only skeletons from wild animals you have hunted or were killed by your traps can be butchered. Anything else, tame animals, pets, goblins, kobolds, mountain gnomes; sentients? can not be butchered/processed and will remain forever in 31.03.

Now the question is if that is intended - elven bone bolts were always a bit creepy to me, but also very cool :)
(0005991)
derigo   
2010-05-03 02:37   
(edited on: 2010-05-03 02:40)
I have a big update for this:

The problem is the dwarven ethic (defined in entity_default.txt) forbids this behavior.
    [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:UNTHINKABLE]
    [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:UNTHINKABLE]
    [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:APPALLING]
    [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAPIENT:SHUN]
    [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_ANIMAL:ACCEPTABLE]

I found this out because I created an evil playable race with a different ethic, and was playing. After some elves attacked, the butchers happily went to town butchering the elves.

Here's my ethics on this subject for that race:
    [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:ACCEPTABLE]
    [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:ACCEPTABLE]
    [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:ACCEPTABLE]
    [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAPIENT:ACCEPTABLE]
    [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_ANIMAL:ACCEPTABLE]

So it looks like this isn't really a bug, so much as a change. Its a little strange, because what exactly are we supposed to do with all those goblin corpses? (I usually throw them into the magma)

'Sapient' by the way, is defined by the CAN_LEARN tag in the creature definitions.
(0006075)
DoctorZuber   
2010-05-04 00:18   
so... dwarven ethics have changed? Making goblin totems is bad now ?
(0006076)
Footkerchief   
2010-05-04 00:56   
(edited on: 2010-05-04 00:58)
Dwarves had MAKE_TROPHY_SAPIENT:SHUN in 40d as well, although the implementation of those ethics may have changed.
(0006077)
derigo   
2010-05-04 01:33   
(edited on: 2010-05-04 01:35)
I think the
    [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:UNTHINKABLE]
    [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:UNTHINKABLE]

ethics have now been applied to butchery in general. Without butchery, you get no bones or skulls. I don't think the 'MAKE_TROPHY' ethics are involved because despite having

  [ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:ACCEPTABLE]

my evil race will not butcher its own dead.

All of this is somewhat difficult or rather time-consuming to test, as entity definition changes require a new world to be generated to take effect. Then of course, you have to progress a fortress far enough along to get sentient enemy corpses.
(0008404)
Langdon   
2010-06-14 05:59   
I'm not sure but I believe partial skeletons and body parts will eventually decay to bones on their own without butchery. I have several goblin limbs thrown up on unreachable cliff ledges above my fort - they've been there for years, and I've noticed the oldest of them are now bones. The rotting process takes years though, which may not be intended.

Also, skeletons in indoor refuse piles might not undergo this process (or maybe I'm just too impatient to wait).

A solution would be to move the skeleton disassembly process under MAKE_TROPHY instead of KILL, perhaps separating it from the Butcher job under the butcher shop.
(0010233)
kwieland   
2010-07-14 07:32   
Making things out of your enemies bones is a reasonable dwarf thing to do. It also makes sense for "child snatched" dwarfs to receive a proper resting place. It doesn't make sense to butcher goblins, but isn't that what the NOT_BUTCHERABLE tag was all about, or is it gone?
(0010235)
Footkerchief   
2010-07-14 07:38   
It doesn't make sense to butcher goblins, but isn't that what the NOT_BUTCHERABLE tag was all about, or is it gone?

It's still present, but it's always been used for creatures for which butchering is basically impossible, e.g. magma men. You may be thinking of the BUTCHERABLE_NONSTANDARD tag, which was used for creatures that are theoretically butcherable but wouldn't be butchered by dwarves (e.g. goblins, kobolds, etc). BUTCHERABLE_NONSTANDARD was removed when ethics got added.
(0010333)
kwieland   
2010-07-15 03:56   
I just had a werewolf get taken down by my dogs right after embark. They will not butcher the corpse. Is that right? Upload the save?
(0012402)
tatterdemalian   
2010-09-04 10:41   
Maybe there needs to be a separation between "butcher corpse" and "butcher skeleton." Technically both are desecration of the sapient dead, but I can see why one would be illegal (to keep sapients' meat out of the larder) and the other wouldn't (to at least make something useful from the bones). Maybe there could be a distinction between sapients that are members of the dwarves' own culture, and that of hostile cultures.

Or maybe there should be an easier way to ban sapient corpses/body parts from refuse pits. It would be nice if there was a more convenient way to distinguish sapients from non-sapients besides searching through the ini files.
(0012413)
dree12   
2010-09-04 18:29   
Meh, if there was, dwarves wouldn't do either. It'll just be adding a new ethic, breaking save-compat, thus becoming a feature suggestion. Because seriously, do you use human bones?
(0012830)
Nidor   
2010-09-19 20:04   
Hmm, so are Goblins butcherable or no right now? I am using an unmodded game yet I noticed several "Masterwork Goblin <organ> roasts" in my kitchen stocks, and on checking my kitchen, I seen goblin hearts being used to the prepared meals. I have seen many goblins thrown on the corpse pile untouched, but never seen one taken to the shops.

Not sure how to post saves yet, but got a image host with a screen.

 http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/7559/eatinggreens.jpg [^]
(0013203)
Malibu Stacey   
2010-10-05 03:37   
"Because seriously, do you use human bones?"
In 40D if a race attacked my fort, their corpses were fair game after the ambush or siege had been taken care of. I can't remember whether that included Humans & Dwarves (don't see why not, enemies are enemies regardless of your own preconceptions & squeamishness) but you would certainly get Goblin, Kobold & Elven corpses decaying to a pile of usable bones if left lying around for a while (whether in a refuse stockpile or not). Even your own Dwarves corpses would decay to bones if left unburied for a while but AFAIK you were unable to use those bones for anything other than burial.

If corpses now decaying into skeletons leaves the skeletons unusable for anything other than lowering your FPS, unless you wait the 10+ years in the hope they eventually turn themselves into usable bones, that's a pretty obvious bug.
(0013526)
kwieland   
2010-10-26 09:25   
In 40d any dwarves that died were treated as "one of your own". Mine were always given a proper burial. I don't think you'd have been able to use the bones.
(0017143)
kwieland   
2011-04-06 14:06   
Foot, this is related to the bug just reported here: 0004459.

Basically if you kill (via military, not hunting?) a hostile but otherwise normally butcherable animal you cannot butcher it. I had a siege arrive with lots of horses. I trapped several, tried to tame and butcher them only to find out they were still hostile. So I killed them anyway. The butcher wouldn't butcher the corpse.

I've never been able to butcher a hostile skeleton (no mater the age), either. I miss goblin bone bolts!
(0017145)
Footkerchief   
2011-04-06 14:52   
I trapped several, tried to tame and butcher them only to find out they were still hostile. So I killed them anyway. The butcher wouldn't butcher the corpse.

Did you get the corpses into a refuse stockpile first? That seems to be a necessary step.
(0017163)
kwieland   
2011-04-07 10:15   
(edited on: 2011-05-03 20:37)
Sorry, the above post is in error.

With the next invasion, I had more horses to kill. After the horses were killed, I ordered their corpse to be dumped. (no refuse stockpile) I built a butcher shop right next to the garbage dump and the horses (once unforbidden) were butchered. So it was probably a distance thing. That is strange, though, since I've had butchers traipse halfway across a map to get a corpse to butcher before, and the other one was <30 x/y and <5 z levels away. Again, probably a distance thing.
(0017170)
Footkerchief   
2011-04-07 11:39   
I've seen erratic behavior with that before. If you get a save that demonstrates inconsistent behavior, it would warrant a report.
(0017617)
kwieland   
2011-05-03 20:37   
New update. Sometimes dwarves will butcher parts of goblins. I'm not sure exactly what parts, but not the corpse. I noticed this when I had FUN and ended up with a bunch of goblin bones in my bone stockpile. For instance, you'll see XYZ goblin bones [4]. In my case I was making bone bolts. Once they get down to just one XYZ goblin bone, the dwarves wouldn't recognize it as a bone and wouldn't do anything with it. Any way to explain that? This save (http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=4300 [^] ) has goblin bones and you can check the stocks for goblin bolts (z=147 (F1 hotkey), unforbid them, process them).

Oh, and I've waited 10+ years. The skeletons are never useable.
(0017627)
Drazinononda   
2011-05-04 14:45   
This still happens in 31.25: I lost a couple tame stray dogs to wild animals in a recent fort, and my butcher refused to disassemble the bodies or skeletons in any way. I was, however, able to slaughter a war dog to get leather for a strange mood in that same fortress, and all other butchery worked fine.
(0017685)
Quietust   
2011-05-10 13:51   
(edited on: 2011-05-10 13:52)
It's been speculated that sentients only yield usable bones from the decay of severed body parts that don't contain any other non-rottable materials (i.e. cartilage, hair, feather, scale, nail, tooth, horn, hoof, shell, or chitin).
(0017688)
kwieland   
2011-05-10 22:16   
That would make sense with what I've seen. Why the one bone left thing, though? That is sure bizarre.
(0024453)
Footkerchief   
2014-01-27 21:33   
The last bone thing is 0005816.
(0031157)
Frogging101   
2014-11-24 16:33   
(edited on: 2014-11-24 16:36)
Still a problem in 0.40.17. My butchers ignore tame animal and sentient skeletons in my refuse stockpile. It might make sense for ethics to forbid dwarves from breaking up sentient creatures' skeletons, but I have stuff like "Stray Yak Bull skeleton" in my stockpile, from when goblins came and killed my animals outside. It's still livestock. There's no reason my dwarves shouldn't be able to butcher it just because it didn't die at their hands.
(0036513)
Altaree   
2017-05-10 07:00   
In 0.43.05 I changed my dwarf ethics to allow butchering sentients like I did in previous versions but it doesn't work.
(0036620)
FantasticDorf   
2017-06-18 01:28   
Altree i posted what should have been a fix on the forums that in conjunction with your dead_dwarf=false dfhack script should render bodies from the corpse pile usable by modifying the corpse stockpile in dfhack (43.05-alpha0 has the stockpile manager) as to reject rotten items using [i] & [CTRL & X].

Without dead_dwarf=true being turned false, the stockpile manager will not even acknowledge that the contents ontop of it even exist hence why its a nessecary step before modifying the individual stockpile.

Forum reference: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161408.msg7488068#msg7488068 [^]

save: http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=12972 [^]

If it works for named usually off limits animal pets (as my forum post & save details) i don't see why it shouldn't work for sentients with names since your altered civilisation has the accessibility to go ahead and eat & work the materials.
(0036700)
Nilsou2   
2017-08-19 13:08   
Just to answer to FantasticDorf, i have notice that this workaround seems to NOT work with inteligent pet dead from other thing that slaughter.

It works for sentient, it seems to work for classic pet (i guess), but it doesn't works for both, at least in my test.

So i guess these two bug (this one and http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9171 [^] ) are probably not exactly the same and interfer in a way or an other.
(0038644)
Robsoie   
2018-07-28 12:38   
(edited on: 2018-07-28 12:39)
Having captured a bunch of beak dogs from raiding gobs pits , i had setup them outside my fort in order to be a 1st layer of defense for the incoming gob invasion to retaliate against my many raids.

It happened and to my disapointement the beak dogs didn't fought at all and let themselves get killed by the gobs.

Anyways after destroying the invaders with my military, my refuse stockpile was filled with beak dogs that i let with time decay into skeleton.
Good i thought as even if the creatures were a big disapointement as a weapon, those monsters could at least launch my bone crafting industry.

And how wrong i was, as they were considered tame after being captured and brought back to my fort this old bug is sadly still going on in 44.12.
(0038760)
FantasticDorf   
2018-08-28 03:56   
This DFhack script which automatically applies dead_dwarf=true upon the death of a creature under some stringent rules to exclude your own player citizen creature race gets around this bug quite neatly.

However it will not affect creatures hidden from view such as the caverns that have already died before the script is activated. Sentient pets when slaughtered have their goods added to relevant stockpiles like normal animals with it on, along with sentients. You'd have to analyse the script-code to distinguish how it works.

(( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=165414.0 [^] ))

Anecdotally beak dogs make better meat & egg animals than defensive ones without modding [TRAINABLE_WAR] on them, since they are pretty sizable & dangerous anyway @Robsoie.