0000190: Adventurers and dwarves melt in rain/water

Notes
(0000423) Intelligent Shade of Blue (reporter) 2010-04-02 21:31	I also experienced this bug. Right after breaking my toe from a fall and passing out constantly, I awoke to find that I was melting. The health report said that all the fat in my arms/hands/legs/feet was melting. While I didn't know it at the time, I returned to the same area and and confirmed that the temperature was scorching.

(0000434) shinziril (reporter) 2010-04-02 23:10	I also experienced this bug. Interestingly, it seems that it can be triggered by rain or by being hit by a wave (adventurer melted after being hit by a wave, entire town including me melted when it started raining). Both cases were in Scorching / Burning biomes. However, the adventurers and townspeople had been fine before that. Perhaps the "water covering" increases the rate of heat transfer or something, causing melting?

(0000437) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-02 23:21	melting from rain? acid rain? FUN! I should ask if you're using create world now, or if either of you changed anything in world creation.

(0000439) Nimrod (reporter) 2010-04-02 23:31	confirmed Temperature is always 'scorching' when it happens then add water and you are hit by a boiling liquid -> melting so either the temperature is way to high or the boiling point for fat is too low as i see it

(0000440) Ampersand (reporter) 2010-04-02 23:59 edited on: 2010-04-03 00:00	This appears to be an issue with boiling liquids as Nimrod suggests. In arena mode, a bronze colossus was not melted to death by dragons blood, but by boiling dwarf blood. But really, this is an old issue. Heatdam from scorching temperature regions has been in a lot of versions. A quick fix is to change some world generation settings to keep the max possible temperature lower. In the init/world_gen.txt file, change the following line; [TEMPERATURE:25:75:400:400] To [TEMPERATURE:25:65:400:400] Regenerate a world, head to a scorching region, see if the same problem still occurs.

(0000626) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-03 12:50 edited on: 2010-04-04 13:41	0000289, 0000307, 0000417

(0000647) Djohaal (reporter) 2010-04-03 13:46 edited on: 2010-04-03 13:53	Actually it is indeed related to 0000289, I just played a human in the cooking tub in adventure mode (while in the arena), and it said he melted. This means all tiles near to magma are potentially lethal to equipped creatures if they stay in them for too long

(0000655) Kaelem Gaen (reporter) 2010-04-03 14:08 edited on: 2010-04-03 14:11	I'll try the worldgen heat fix and see if it happens, it also seems to be related to water/water covering? I'll jump in a river with my an Amphibian man adventurer and get back to the tracker. That's of course assuming a Pocket Island gets scorching climates

(0000734) Kaelem Gaen (reporter) 2010-04-03 18:12	Well they didn't melt in adventurer mode with the temperature change, but I didn't test that long. I think on top of this if your dwarves in Fortress mode are out to long in the heat in a "scorching" climate they melt/bleed to death as well. Without water on them. I noticed this in my first fortress, one of my guys bleed to death, then all the migrants did, not a big loss on the migrants but the carpenter was pretty useful. Wish I could modify the issue but seems I can only add notes.

(0000832) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-04 02:17	from what you've said it sounds like the water covering is a big factor in this. Did someone goof and make water flammable or something?

(0000842) nichaey (reporter) 2010-04-04 03:58	no, I think it might be general glitch in the new liquid system. I've been getting weird stuff, like scalding boiling blood after a dragon breathes on a crowd.

(0001518) vins (reporter) 2010-04-06 10:39	Same bug here.

(0001523) Halconnen (reporter) 2010-04-06 10:49	I mosty 'stopgap-fixed' this problem by raising the melting point of fat several degrees. Curiously fat tissue has a melting point of 10096, but a heatdam point of 10250. It melts waaaaaaaaaay before it chars. Out of curiosity, I just put some fatty sausage in the oven and watched. That's certainly not how it works in reality.

(0001880) Tamara13 (reporter) 2010-04-07 16:17	Same bug here. Let's just hope Toady fixes this bug before dwarves get the ability to sweat. :( Anyone know if vomit will boil you?

(0002261) shinziril (reporter) 2010-04-08 22:00	I think the main problem is that if you look in the raws for material_template_default, you find that the default FAT template has a melting point of 10078°U, or 110°F! That seems a little low, considering I know certain parts of the real world can be 110°F, and I haven't heard any tales of people's fat spontaneously melting in such climates. The only other thing I noticed is that a lot of the in-game climates seemed to be Scorching, including at least one underground cavern. I'm not sure why, or if that's even a bug or just coincidence on my part.

(0002280) MSeven (reporter) 2010-04-09 02:18	Has dupe/related to 0000264

(0002327) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-09 08:32	Okay, on the subject of world gen numbers... in 0.31.01 and .02 the numbers used for world gen in all the default settings are 25:75:x:y. The variance numbers do scale up some from pocket 26:26 up to large 400:400. This is all very normal. The difference is quite simple. Using these exact same settings in 40d generates a world with temperatures ranging from "Hot" to "Cold" with both being fairly uncommon. That is clearly not the case now. So there is a change here in how the world gen settings behave. How much is somewhat hard to say. Freezing and Scorching are the strongest words the game uses. Temperature ranges from -1000 to 1000 also generate temperatures from Scorching to Freezing. We can narrow this down some by recognizing that dwarves do not instantly freeze into blocks of ice nor do they instantly burst into flame (at least not without adding water first).

(0002328) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-09 08:43	Rofl! Okay, I had to do it. Having looked over this I had to do the old comedy routine of embarking on a -1000,+1000 temperature world. choosing the farthest north scorching place I could find I embarked. the effect was dramatically more visual than I remember. EVERYTHING caught fire, and the map was quickly enveloped in smoke. we all died within seconds as expected, it was just a bit more fun than I remember.

(0002333) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-09 09:22 edited on: 2010-04-09 09:24	Okay, trying to understand why the temperature ranges are more extreme I run a series of world gens on a pocket region looking for patterns. pocket region, default settings except for temperature 25:75:26:26 -- this is the default - Freezing terrain in this case covers 20 tiles of a southern ocean - scorching terrain covers only one tile of a northern mountain range 35:65:26:26 -- freezing to Hot - Freezing terrain found on 17 tiles in a combination of flat/hilly terrain in the SW corner. - No scorching terrain, hottest is the northern sea. 45:55:26:26 -- Freezing to Hot - A whopping 52 Freezing tiles, mostly all landing on a large southern mountain range. - No scorching tiles, only two hot tiles in the NW in a flat forested area. Doing some quick tests and aborting world gen, I scaled this the rest of the way down to through 46:54 47:53 ... down to 50:50. I was looking for the visible frozen tiles on the main map. They were observable in every single world. Okay, this is officially weird, but I do have a theory. I do remember seeing a note saying that elevation effects temperature now. This may be what we're seeing here which is generating our wider temperature ranges. Whatever is going on here it seems to be badly overpowering the temperature settings in world gen. Since my comical -1000,+1000 test still generated a result, the settings are not completely useless, but they do seem to be unable to generate a steady temperate environment now. Of course, this is only 3 detailed world gens and a few quick glances at aborted world gens trying to see a pattern. To get a clearer picture, we need more data.

(0002336) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-09 09:31	Let me know if you want to branch the world gen side of this issue into a separate topic.

(0002559) Kaelem Gaen (reporter) 2010-04-10 06:26	It might get looked at better, the world gen thing I mean, if it's a seperate topic, but they seem pretty related, as one leads to the other.

(0002573) G-Flex (reporter) 2010-04-10 08:09	"I think the main problem is that if you look in the raws for material_template_default, you find that the default FAT template has a melting point of 10078°U, or 110°F! That seems a little low, considering I know certain parts of the real world can be 110°F, and I haven't heard any tales of people's fat spontaneously melting in such climates. " The game probably isn't making a distinction here between fat and fatty tissue. Beef tallow, for instance, will melt at around that temperature, so obviously there's something going on. Three possibilities for why fat inside a body shouldn't melt so easily (not mutually exclusive): The fatty tissue has a higher melting point than the pure fat does, the pure fat is distributed such that its phase state doesn't matter a lot within the tissue (less likely), or warm-blooded animals simply control their internal temperature enough that the temperature inside doesn't get that high (extremely unlikely, since then people with high fevers would have their insides melting).

(0002586) HarryS (reporter) 2010-04-10 09:11	Fat can and should be able to melt at 110°F or 44°C. However, anyone who has gone to a sauna knows that temperatures of 110°F or 44°C and higher are perfectly survivable, for a while. But if a human being (or dwarf) has his body temperature rise to a level like that, he'll likely die from other causes before his fat melts. # 37 °C (99 °F) - Normal body temperature (which varies between about 36.12–37.5 °C (97–100 °F)) # 38 °C (100 °F) - Sweating, feeling very uncomfortable, slightly hungry. # 39 °C (102 °F) - Severe sweating, flushed and very red. Fast heart rate and breathlessness. There may be exhaustion accompanying this. Children and people with epilepsy may be very likely to get convulsions at this point. # 40 °C (104 °F) - Fainting, dehydration, weakness, vomiting, headache and dizziness may occur as well as profuse sweating. Starts to be life- threatening. # 41 °C (106 °F) - (Medical emergency) - Fainting, vomiting, severe headache, dizziness, confusion, hallucinations, delirium and drowsiness can occur. There may also be palpitations and breathlessness. # 42 °C (108 °F) - Subject may turn pale or remain flushed and red. They may become comatose, be in severe delirium, vomiting, and convulsions can occur. Blood pressure may be high or low and heart rate will be very fast. # 43 °C (109 °F) - Normally death, or there may be serious brain damage, continuous convulsions and shock. Cardio-respiratory collapse will likely occur. # 44 °C (111 °F) or more - Almost certainly death will occur; however, patients have been known to survive up to 46.5 °C (115.7 °F). Source: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_thermoregulation#Thermoregulation_in_humans [^] So the problem isn't the temperature in itself, it's the creatures warming up to the surrounding temperature too easily, and not suffering other symptoms before melting.

(0002632) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-10 13:17 edited on: 2010-04-10 13:21	I'm still playing with some variables in worldgen, trying to generate a mostly-flat map and see if this neutralizes the more extreme temperature ranges we are seeing, unfortunately it seems to be having very little effect. I'm still seeing freezing and scorching temperatures on most every map, which is unheard of in 40d using the same temperature ranges. Even generating with a completely flat temperature of 50:50:0:0 generates anywhere from freezing to hot. This test was done with pocket region and all other world gen settings were unchanged. It doesn't really seem to be elevation based either, since I've seen scorching mountain tops and freezing oceans. This just doesn't make much sense.

(0002731) freakycheeseman (reporter) 2010-04-10 22:40 edited on: 2010-04-10 22:44	So, it certainly seems like the fat melting at those temperatures isn't the problem- that's actually just DF being, once again, awesomely realistic. The problem is that water so quickly brings an individual up to the surounding temperature- which is also accurate (feel the difference between dry 100 degree weather and the same weather only humid), but taken to an extreme degree. Does anyone else feel this needs to be grouped with that thing about dwarves surviving in hot lava? edit: I'd also like to put in my hope that, once this bug is officially "fixed", and once medical matters are likewise, it will still be possible to build a dwarven liposuction clinic.

(0003048) toybasher (reporter) 2010-04-12 08:36	This has happened to me too, my human melted to death in the rain, Right before he died I made myself some bacon with the liquid grease dripping on the floor.

(0003137) cameron (reporter) 2010-04-12 15:36	Ive had this happen kind of slowly where first my head fat melted then my upper body then my lower body each time this happend i lost more blood, until during my lower body melting i died from bleeding out. There was also a short break between each melt. I dont think I was wet but the temperature was described as burning and my world has a very large max temperature so it could have been rather high.

(0003363) Logical2u (manager) 2010-04-13 19:06	I wonder if this could be alleviated or fixed by assigned an [INSULATION] value to the skin?

(0003495) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-04-14 09:51	^^^ This might be what you meant, but the game already has an INSULATION tissue tag, it's just not used for most creatures' tissues (so they get the default insulation of 100 or whatever).

(0003751) Logical2u (manager) 2010-04-15 14:25	From looking at the RAWs, only the fat layer itself has an [INSULATION] tag, and it's specifically [INSULATION:100] as you mentioned. If you put that on the skin layer too, would that reduce heat transfer through to the fat layer and thus reduce the chance of melting?

(0003930) G-Flex (reporter) 2010-04-16 19:28	"So the problem isn't the temperature in itself, it's the creatures warming up to the surrounding temperature too easily, and not suffering other symptoms before melting. " Melting point itself is still an issue, as the raws currently have an extremely naive value there. Let me put it to you this way: Plenty of the fats inside the human body melt well below body temperature. Many melt below the melting point of water, even. But the tissue itself isn't liquefied and seeping out of your body.

(0003941) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-04-16 22:22	@Logical2u from what I remember, Toady said that, even though tissues have separate insulatory properties, the temperature is still tracked at the body part level, not the tissue level. I don't know how the temp transfer calculation works -- maybe it does a weighted average of the tissues to compute overall insulation, or something. It might not matter whether the tissue is internal or external, so raising the insulation for muscle could possibly have a greater effect, I don't know.

(0003972) Toady One (administrator) 2010-04-17 06:05	As far as I can tell from the numbers I'm seeing, the fish fix has fixed this as well, since that involved controlling local maximum daylight temperatures. The fat/tissue issue has been sidestepped by just not making places quite that hot right now. It's more realistic to have temperatures get up into those high levels, but I have to make the overall tissue system support that first, which isn't an issue for the bug tracker.

(0006964) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-05-18 12:03	Reopening due to reports that this is still present in 31.04 -- see 0001933.

(0007051) Milkbot (reporter) 2010-05-20 01:38	I can confirm that this is still active in 31.04, was just alerted that my best mason and only doctor have bled to death in a down pour. Accursed watery rain! Can upload save if necessary. Mason and Diagnoser are the latest events in [a].

(0007052) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-05-20 01:53	The save may well be helpful, yeah.

(0007055) Milkbot (reporter) 2010-05-20 02:22	http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2381 [^] There we go, I started uploading it anyhow, it takes ages on my slow cable. Even with me immediately assigning a burrow, there were plenty of deaths from the point I saved at, and all the dwarves are in a good area and tightly packed to watch them melt.

(0007073) Kumquat (reporter) 2010-05-20 09:17 edited on: 2010-05-20 11:05	I wonder if the melting/boiling system is taking into account the energy required for phase transitions. Evaporating off 1% of a volume of water should cool it down by 20K. (Someone else can work out what it makes in Urist.) Now, the question is how much water there is in a dwarf, and how much alcohol is needed to replace what was lost by sweating... Quick hack-fix: I modded tissue fat to have [MELTING_POINT:NONE] same as muscle. Now I have fish and camels alive in the world.

(0007125) Toady One (administrator) 2010-05-21 06:29	I found a seasonal variation that was screwing it up. It's fixed now in the save there (a dwarf that was dying still dies). I can't rule additional causes out, but from what I can see it should be fine.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-04-02 16:11	Kaelem Gaen	New Issue
2010-04-02 16:53	Kaelem Gaen	Tag Attached: adventure mode
2010-04-02 16:53	Kaelem Gaen	Tag Attached: melting
2010-04-02 21:31	Intelligent Shade of Blue	Note Added: 0000423
2010-04-02 21:39	Intelligent Shade of Blue	Tag Attached: fat
2010-04-02 23:10	shinziril	Note Added: 0000434
2010-04-02 23:21	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000437
2010-04-02 23:31	Nimrod	Note Added: 0000439
2010-04-02 23:59	Ampersand	Note Added: 0000440
2010-04-03 00:00	Ampersand	Note Edited: 0000440	View Revisions
2010-04-03 12:50	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000626
2010-04-03 13:46	Djohaal	Note Added: 0000647
2010-04-03 13:49	Djohaal	Note Edited: 0000647	View Revisions
2010-04-03 13:53	Djohaal	Note Edited: 0000647	View Revisions
2010-04-03 14:05	Kaelem Gaen	Tag Attached: Boiling Point
2010-04-03 14:08	Kaelem Gaen	Note Added: 0000655
2010-04-03 14:11	Kaelem Gaen	Note Edited: 0000655	View Revisions
2010-04-03 18:12	Kaelem Gaen	Note Added: 0000734
2010-04-04 02:06	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000829
2010-04-04 02:17	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000832
2010-04-04 02:18	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0000626	View Revisions
2010-04-04 02:18	DoctorZuber	Note Deleted: 0000829
2010-04-04 03:58	nichaey	Note Added: 0000842
2010-04-04 13:41	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0000626	View Revisions
2010-04-04 13:49	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000416
2010-04-04 13:49	Footkerchief	Relationship added	parent of 0000289
2010-04-04 13:49	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	related to 0000416
2010-04-04 13:50	Footkerchief	Relationship added	parent of 0000416
2010-04-06 00:44	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000587
2010-04-06 10:39	vins	Note Added: 0001518
2010-04-06 10:49	Halconnen	Note Added: 0001523
2010-04-06 18:47	Footkerchief	Summary	Adventurers spontaneously melting. => Adventurers and dwarves melt in rain/water
2010-04-06 18:47	Footkerchief	Sticky Issue	No => Yes
2010-04-07 04:02	Footkerchief	Relationship added	parent of 0000704
2010-04-07 16:17	Tamara13	Note Added: 0001880
2010-04-08 06:56	MSeven	Tag Attached: temperature
2010-04-08 22:00	shinziril	Note Added: 0002261
2010-04-09 02:18	MSeven	Note Added: 0002280
2010-04-09 08:32	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0002327
2010-04-09 08:43	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0002328
2010-04-09 08:57	jarvoll	Issue Monitored: jarvoll
2010-04-09 09:22	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0002333
2010-04-09 09:24	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0002333	View Revisions
2010-04-09 09:31	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0002336
2010-04-09 19:23	Creidieki	Tag Attached: raw file
2010-04-09 19:54	Bacc	Issue Monitored: Bacc
2010-04-10 06:26	Kaelem Gaen	Note Added: 0002559
2010-04-10 08:09	G-Flex	Note Added: 0002573
2010-04-10 09:11	HarryS	Note Added: 0002586
2010-04-10 09:11	HarryS	Issue Monitored: HarryS
2010-04-10 11:10	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0000939
2010-04-10 13:17	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0002632
2010-04-10 13:21	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0002632	View Revisions
2010-04-10 13:21	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0002632	View Revisions
2010-04-10 22:22	simrobert	Issue Monitored: simrobert
2010-04-10 22:40	freakycheeseman	Note Added: 0002731
2010-04-10 22:44	freakycheeseman	Note Edited: 0002731	View Revisions
2010-04-11 00:23	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000945
2010-04-11 08:35	Another	Tag Attached: Rain
2010-04-11 10:20	Darkfire7777	Issue Monitored: Darkfire7777
2010-04-11 15:15	MaDeR Levap	Issue Monitored: MaDeR Levap
2010-04-12 08:36	toybasher	Note Added: 0003048
2010-04-12 15:36	cameron	Note Added: 0003137
2010-04-12 16:05	chuzzum	Issue Monitored: chuzzum
2010-04-13 19:06	Logical2u	Note Added: 0003363
2010-04-13 22:38	Pigbuster	Issue Monitored: Pigbuster
2010-04-13 22:39	Pigbuster	Issue End Monitor: Pigbuster
2010-04-14 09:51	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0003495
2010-04-15 13:07	JustAnotherFool	Issue Monitored: JustAnotherFool
2010-04-15 14:25	Logical2u	Note Added: 0003751
2010-04-16 04:09	wagawaga	Issue Monitored: wagawaga
2010-04-16 19:28	G-Flex	Note Added: 0003930
2010-04-16 22:22	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0003941
2010-04-17 05:55	Toady One	Relationship replaced	related to 0000289
2010-04-17 06:05	Toady One	Note Added: 0003972
2010-04-17 06:05	Toady One	Status	new => resolved
2010-04-17 06:05	Toady One	Fixed in Version	=> 0.31.04
2010-04-17 06:05	Toady One	Resolution	open => fixed
2010-04-17 06:05	Toady One	Assigned To	=> Toady One
2010-04-17 07:18	JustAnotherFool	Issue End Monitor: JustAnotherFool
2010-04-19 20:42	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0001356
2010-05-11 04:51	Logical2u	Relationship added	has duplicate 0001834
2010-05-11 05:31	Logical2u	Relationship added	has duplicate 0001820
2010-05-17 21:58	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0006924
2010-05-17 21:58	Footkerchief	Status	resolved => acknowledged
2010-05-17 23:21	Footkerchief	Relationship added	parent of 0001933
2010-05-18 12:02	Footkerchief	Status	acknowledged => resolved
2010-05-18 12:02	Footkerchief	Note Deleted: 0006924
2010-05-18 12:03	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0006964
2010-05-18 12:03	Footkerchief	Status	resolved => assigned
2010-05-18 14:03	Footkerchief	Category	General => Dwarf Mode -- Environment
2010-05-18 21:55	Footkerchief	Resolution	fixed => reopened
2010-05-20 01:38	Milkbot	Note Added: 0007051
2010-05-20 01:53	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0007052
2010-05-20 02:22	Milkbot	Note Added: 0007055
2010-05-20 09:17	Kumquat	Note Added: 0007073
2010-05-20 11:05	Kumquat	Note Edited: 0007073	View Revisions
2010-05-21 06:29	Toady One	Note Added: 0007125
2010-05-21 06:29	Toady One	Status	assigned => resolved
2010-05-21 06:29	Toady One	Fixed in Version	0.31.04 => 0.31.05
2010-05-21 06:29	Toady One	Resolution	reopened => fixed
2010-05-21 12:38	quatch	Tag Attached: season
2010-05-23 21:08	Beeskee	Issue Monitored: Beeskee
2010-05-31 00:23	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	has duplicate 0001933
2010-05-31 00:23	Footkerchief	Issue Monitored: Footkerchief
2010-06-02 13:07	Footkerchief	Sticky Issue	Yes => No
2010-06-09 06:45	Toady One	Status	resolved => closed
2010-07-12 10:04	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0002605