0001292: Eyes can't be gouged out - Dwarf Fortress Bug Tracker

(0004044)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-04-18 06:48
edited on: 2010-04-18 11:20

Might have somthing to do with 0000723

I guess this because it says the throat is torn apart (this should mean red leval damage) yet it only does brown damage. I guess the game gets confused and thinks the throat is simply torn out so you wont stop bleeding. I bet thats why it works with cheeks too, as gouging dosant tear them out and the game thinks that crosbow bolt in your lip dosant know when to stop bleeding.

(0005601)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-04-28 16:06

Anyone else noticed this?

(0011019)
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-07-25 14:42

Reminder sent to: toybasher

Is this still an issue in 31.12?

(0011035)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-07-25 17:08
edited on: 2010-07-25 17:09

I havnt tried but I bet it would remain the same, like now even if the throat is cut and a major artery is severed the throat will still be listed as brown.

and eyes still cant be completely torn out, same with eyelids, cheeks, throat,lips, etc

(0011036)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-07-25 17:24

Just checked it while testing another bug and throats don't go beyond brown, at least for a chokehold and strangle by a Bronze Collossus on an Ogre.

(0011526)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-08-05 12:19
edited on: 2010-08-05 12:19

Indeed, I still think its because Toady fixed bleeding to death from strangulation by making it so the throat can only turn brown (red throats caused EXTREME bleeding in 40d) so Thus, chokeholds cant fataly damage the throat.

As for embedded body parts not being able to be removed, I have no idea. (is related with 0001297)

(0011768)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-08-13 12:38

ONCE In an earliler version (0.37 I think or something) I saw an elf missing an eyelid, thats about it, I think that missing eyelid happened during worldgen as in combat You can attack embedded body parts all you want and they only can go up to brown. (At least from an axe to an eyelid and trying the "Dwarven death pinch" on body parts such as cheeks, eyes,and lips.)

(0011973)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-08-20 17:32

WHy is this awaiting update? i downloaded the new version and this STILl happens, attacking small embedded body parts many times only turns them brown and a throat "torn apart" and with a major artery severed still shows up as brown. even gouging cheeks turns them brown and eyes cant be torn out, only turned red.

(0013373)
btbonval (reporter)
2010-10-14 22:45

I still see this issue in Linux running version 0.31.16. I'm not sure how useful "me too" reports are, but I did try to add OS and specific version number for clarity.

(0013719)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-11-12 12:59

In the newest version aimed attacks make this even more appearent, try knocking out a enemy and slashing and stabing them in the eyelids a hundred times, you will keep "Tearing apart the skin!" over and over but it will still only show up brown on the wounds screen, and you will never be able to completely remove it, same with other small body parts.

(0013826)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-11-14 09:08

Also I reccomend you try this in arena, make two humans

Take controll of one and strangle the other one into passing out (or cause enough pain untill he passes out, with the way bone breaks cause pain this will be very easy)

While hes out bite him in the throat, now keep shaking him over and over and over, you should keep "Tearing apart the skin!" you can keep doing this and it will also keep saying a "Major artery in the throat has been opened by the attack!" You will never be able to make his throat any worse then brown. you will be unable to remove his throat either. Same with eyes and other small body parts like cheeks, eyelids, etc.

If you want to test it even farther if your thinking "Maybe its cause a bite and shake isnt powerful enough?" Go ahead, do it again except with a sword or a dagger, keep stabbing them in the eyes or cheeks untill they die, you will still be unable to completely remove those body parts, only turn them red/brown/yellow.

On a side note, if you open an artery you can keep attacking it over and over and it will keep saying you opened it, same with tendons and nerves, you can keep attacking them and it will keep saying "A tendon has been torn!" almost as if there are infinite tendons, etc. (Maybe this is why damaged tendons seem to not have much of an effect? Like its not getting destroyed, only "torn" over and over?)

(0014458)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-12-08 10:07
edited on: 2010-12-08 10:09

Lets try some science, can somone mod the game so eyes and such dont have the embedded tag? Is it the embedded tag that prevents removal?

or maybe it is the small tag, any ideas?

(0014459)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-12-08 10:13

Or maybe it is because the way damage currently works? Like I noticed damage seems to be "Skin/Brown, Fat/Yellow muscle or bone/red." maybe this could be why throats dont go beyond brown, they only have skin and nothing else.

(0014460)
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-12-08 10:57

Yeah, it appears intentional for throats.

(0014461)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-12-08 11:20

But it still seems odd for throats, I mean they only have skin! You can tear apart the artery and it still shows up brown when red would be more appropiate.

(Kinda think throats would be better if they were like in 40d where they could cause suffocating, maybe giving throats a fat, muscle, and "Throat" tissue layer would be nice (throat tissue damage could cuase suffocation?) and I also miss being able to remove throats very much, maybe removing major artery always opening on a thrshold of damage should be changed to random chance? I kinda miss the minor heart wounds of the old version)

(0014464)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-12-08 16:43

Would like to bump this a bit with more info, Can somone find out which tag prevents eyes from being lost? is it embedded?

and I still think we should return the old way throat damage used to work, before in 40D the throat actually had a function and such, now it just...kinda sits there and doesnt really controll breathing like it used too, like you can smack it with a warhammer and they wont die like they should in 40D

perhaps making it like 40D except making the throat "Internal" and "external" at the same time would be cool (yes i know it makes no sense) This way a warhammer could turn it cyan or something and cause suffocation would be a nice feature.

(0014465)
Dwarfu (manager)
2010-12-08 19:13

toybasher,

Please keep comments related to the bug report.

You can open a thread and discuss your ideas/changes on the Suggestions forum:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0 [^]

As for modding, you'll get responses in the modding forum:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=13.0 [^]

(0014466)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-12-09 04:12

True but the modding thing has a point, if we remove the embedded tag and eyes become removable or something it measn embedded is borked, we need to test this.

(0014503)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-12-10 13:00
edited on: 2010-12-11 10:47

I took another look at the RAWs, all the "Unremovable" body parts all have the "[EMBEDDED]" tag, its starting to look more and more like its this tag that makes the body parts unremovable.

I need somone willing to remove the embedded tag and see if eyes become removeable or whatever, would help a ton, thanks!

(0014562)
toybasher (reporter)
2010-12-13 03:34

Parent of 0001297.

(0014938)
toybasher (reporter)
2011-01-26 10:38

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74870.0 [^]

This thread might help.

(0027390)
thvaz (reporter)
2014-07-24 00:21
edited on: 2014-07-24 00:31

Confirmed for 0.40.xx . Though the game say you gouged the eye with success, the victim still keeps its eye, although mangled.

Edit: Well, I thought gouging the eyes meant to take it off its orbits, though that is not the case. Wikipedia says that "Eye-gouging is the act of pressing or tearing the eye using the fingers or instruments".

eye gouging in df presently can gets the eye with a red wound. I think we can close this bug. Or at least change it title to something like "[EMBEDDED] organs can't removed in combat"

(0027890)
Toady One (administrator)
2014-07-29 12:40

Yeah, this is the expected behavior. I'm not sure if it was differently wrong before 0.40.01, so I'll mark it as fixed for 0.40.01.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-04-18 06:44	toybasher	New Issue
2010-04-18 06:48	toybasher	Note Added: 0004044
2010-04-18 10:09	toybasher	Issue Monitored: toybasher
2010-04-18 10:24	Footkerchief	Relationship added	child of 0000723
2010-04-18 10:37	Kennel	Tag Attached: combat
2010-04-18 10:37	Kennel	Tag Attached: wound
2010-04-18 11:20	toybasher	Note Edited: 0004044	View Revisions
2010-04-18 12:22	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	child of 0000723
2010-04-18 12:22	Footkerchief	Relationship added	child of 0000033
2010-04-22 11:31	toybasher	Tag Attached: gouge
2010-04-28 16:06	toybasher	Note Added: 0005601
2010-07-25 14:42	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0011019
2010-07-25 14:42	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: AWAITING UPDATE
2010-07-25 17:08	toybasher	Note Added: 0011035
2010-07-25 17:09	toybasher	Note Edited: 0011035	View Revisions
2010-07-25 17:24	smjjames	Note Added: 0011036
2010-08-05 12:19	toybasher	Note Added: 0011526
2010-08-05 12:19	toybasher	Note Edited: 0011526	View Revisions
2010-08-05 12:19	toybasher	Note Edited: 0011526	View Revisions
2010-08-13 12:38	toybasher	Note Added: 0011768
2010-08-20 10:34	toybasher	Tag Attached: embedded
2010-08-20 17:32	toybasher	Note Added: 0011973
2010-10-14 22:45	btbonval	Note Added: 0013373
2010-11-12 12:59	toybasher	Note Added: 0013719
2010-11-14 09:00	toybasher	Tag Attached: throat
2010-11-14 09:08	toybasher	Note Added: 0013826
2010-11-16 07:09	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000382
2010-11-18 18:14	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0003426
2010-11-18 18:14	Footkerchief	Summary	embedded tag does not work correctly, Throat damage does not go beyond brown, => Eyes can't be gouged out, throat doesn't get damaged beyond brown
2010-11-18 18:15	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	has duplicate 0000382
2010-11-19 16:09	toybasher	Tag Attached: pinch
2010-11-21 11:41	toybasher	Tag Attached: Small
2010-11-29 12:37	toybasher	Tag Attached: tendon
2010-11-29 12:37	toybasher	Tag Attached: nerve
2010-12-08 10:07	toybasher	Note Added: 0014458
2010-12-08 10:09	toybasher	Note Edited: 0014458	View Revisions
2010-12-08 10:13	toybasher	Note Added: 0014459
2010-12-08 10:57	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0014460
2010-12-08 10:58	Footkerchief	Summary	Eyes can't be gouged out, throat doesn't get damaged beyond brown => Eyes can't be gouged out
2010-12-08 10:58	Footkerchief	Tag Detached: AWAITING UPDATE
2010-12-08 11:20	toybasher	Note Added: 0014461
2010-12-08 16:43	toybasher	Note Added: 0014464
2010-12-08 19:13	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0014465
2010-12-09 04:12	toybasher	Note Added: 0014466
2010-12-10 13:00	toybasher	Note Added: 0014503
2010-12-10 15:58	toybasher	Tag Attached: eyes
2010-12-11 10:47	toybasher	Note Edited: 0014503	View Revisions
2010-12-13 03:34	toybasher	Note Added: 0014562
2011-01-26 10:38	toybasher	Note Added: 0014938
2012-02-15 08:50	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0001297
2014-07-24 00:21	thvaz	Note Added: 0027390
2014-07-24 00:30	thvaz	Note Edited: 0027390	View Revisions
2014-07-24 00:31	thvaz	Note Edited: 0027390	View Revisions
2014-07-24 00:34	thvaz	Tag Attached: CLOSE THIS
2014-07-29 12:40	Toady One	Note Added: 0027890
2014-07-29 12:40	Toady One	Status	new => resolved
2014-07-29 12:40	Toady One	Fixed in Version	=> 0.40.01
2014-07-29 12:40	Toady One	Resolution	open => fixed
2014-07-29 12:40	Toady One	Assigned To	=> Toady One

Notes
(0004044) toybasher (reporter) 2010-04-18 06:48 edited on: 2010-04-18 11:20	Might have somthing to do with 0000723 I guess this because it says the throat is torn apart (this should mean red leval damage) yet it only does brown damage. I guess the game gets confused and thinks the throat is simply torn out so you wont stop bleeding. I bet thats why it works with cheeks too, as gouging dosant tear them out and the game thinks that crosbow bolt in your lip dosant know when to stop bleeding.

(0005601) toybasher (reporter) 2010-04-28 16:06	Anyone else noticed this?

(0011019) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-07-25 14:42	Reminder sent to: toybasher Is this still an issue in 31.12?

(0011035) toybasher (reporter) 2010-07-25 17:08 edited on: 2010-07-25 17:09	I havnt tried but I bet it would remain the same, like now even if the throat is cut and a major artery is severed the throat will still be listed as brown. and eyes still cant be completely torn out, same with eyelids, cheeks, throat,lips, etc

(0011036) smjjames (reporter) 2010-07-25 17:24	Just checked it while testing another bug and throats don't go beyond brown, at least for a chokehold and strangle by a Bronze Collossus on an Ogre.

(0011526) toybasher (reporter) 2010-08-05 12:19 edited on: 2010-08-05 12:19	Indeed, I still think its because Toady fixed bleeding to death from strangulation by making it so the throat can only turn brown (red throats caused EXTREME bleeding in 40d) so Thus, chokeholds cant fataly damage the throat. As for embedded body parts not being able to be removed, I have no idea. (is related with 0001297)

(0011768) toybasher (reporter) 2010-08-13 12:38	ONCE In an earliler version (0.37 I think or something) I saw an elf missing an eyelid, thats about it, I think that missing eyelid happened during worldgen as in combat You can attack embedded body parts all you want and they only can go up to brown. (At least from an axe to an eyelid and trying the "Dwarven death pinch" on body parts such as cheeks, eyes,and lips.)

(0011973) toybasher (reporter) 2010-08-20 17:32	WHy is this awaiting update? i downloaded the new version and this STILl happens, attacking small embedded body parts many times only turns them brown and a throat "torn apart" and with a major artery severed still shows up as brown. even gouging cheeks turns them brown and eyes cant be torn out, only turned red.

(0013373) btbonval (reporter) 2010-10-14 22:45	I still see this issue in Linux running version 0.31.16. I'm not sure how useful "me too" reports are, but I did try to add OS and specific version number for clarity.

(0013719) toybasher (reporter) 2010-11-12 12:59	In the newest version aimed attacks make this even more appearent, try knocking out a enemy and slashing and stabing them in the eyelids a hundred times, you will keep "Tearing apart the skin!" over and over but it will still only show up brown on the wounds screen, and you will never be able to completely remove it, same with other small body parts.

(0013826) toybasher (reporter) 2010-11-14 09:08	Also I reccomend you try this in arena, make two humans Take controll of one and strangle the other one into passing out (or cause enough pain untill he passes out, with the way bone breaks cause pain this will be very easy) While hes out bite him in the throat, now keep shaking him over and over and over, you should keep "Tearing apart the skin!" you can keep doing this and it will also keep saying a "Major artery in the throat has been opened by the attack!" You will never be able to make his throat any worse then brown. you will be unable to remove his throat either. Same with eyes and other small body parts like cheeks, eyelids, etc. If you want to test it even farther if your thinking "Maybe its cause a bite and shake isnt powerful enough?" Go ahead, do it again except with a sword or a dagger, keep stabbing them in the eyes or cheeks untill they die, you will still be unable to completely remove those body parts, only turn them red/brown/yellow. On a side note, if you open an artery you can keep attacking it over and over and it will keep saying you opened it, same with tendons and nerves, you can keep attacking them and it will keep saying "A tendon has been torn!" almost as if there are infinite tendons, etc. (Maybe this is why damaged tendons seem to not have much of an effect? Like its not getting destroyed, only "torn" over and over?)

(0014458) toybasher (reporter) 2010-12-08 10:07 edited on: 2010-12-08 10:09	Lets try some science, can somone mod the game so eyes and such dont have the embedded tag? Is it the embedded tag that prevents removal? or maybe it is the small tag, any ideas?

(0014459) toybasher (reporter) 2010-12-08 10:13	Or maybe it is because the way damage currently works? Like I noticed damage seems to be "Skin/Brown, Fat/Yellow muscle or bone/red." maybe this could be why throats dont go beyond brown, they only have skin and nothing else.

(0014460) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-12-08 10:57	Yeah, it appears intentional for throats.

(0014461) toybasher (reporter) 2010-12-08 11:20	But it still seems odd for throats, I mean they only have skin! You can tear apart the artery and it still shows up brown when red would be more appropiate. (Kinda think throats would be better if they were like in 40d where they could cause suffocating, maybe giving throats a fat, muscle, and "Throat" tissue layer would be nice (throat tissue damage could cuase suffocation?) and I also miss being able to remove throats very much, maybe removing major artery always opening on a thrshold of damage should be changed to random chance? I kinda miss the minor heart wounds of the old version)

(0014464) toybasher (reporter) 2010-12-08 16:43	Would like to bump this a bit with more info, Can somone find out which tag prevents eyes from being lost? is it embedded? and I still think we should return the old way throat damage used to work, before in 40D the throat actually had a function and such, now it just...kinda sits there and doesnt really controll breathing like it used too, like you can smack it with a warhammer and they wont die like they should in 40D perhaps making it like 40D except making the throat "Internal" and "external" at the same time would be cool (yes i know it makes no sense) This way a warhammer could turn it cyan or something and cause suffocation would be a nice feature.

(0014465) Dwarfu (manager) 2010-12-08 19:13	toybasher, Please keep comments related to the bug report. You can open a thread and discuss your ideas/changes on the Suggestions forum: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0 [^] As for modding, you'll get responses in the modding forum: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=13.0 [^]

(0014466) toybasher (reporter) 2010-12-09 04:12	True but the modding thing has a point, if we remove the embedded tag and eyes become removable or something it measn embedded is borked, we need to test this.

(0014503) toybasher (reporter) 2010-12-10 13:00 edited on: 2010-12-11 10:47	I took another look at the RAWs, all the "Unremovable" body parts all have the "[EMBEDDED]" tag, its starting to look more and more like its this tag that makes the body parts unremovable. I need somone willing to remove the embedded tag and see if eyes become removeable or whatever, would help a ton, thanks!

(0014562) toybasher (reporter) 2010-12-13 03:34	Parent of 0001297.

(0014938) toybasher (reporter) 2011-01-26 10:38	http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74870.0 [^] This thread might help.

(0027390) thvaz (reporter) 2014-07-24 00:21 edited on: 2014-07-24 00:31	Confirmed for 0.40.xx . Though the game say you gouged the eye with success, the victim still keeps its eye, although mangled. Edit: Well, I thought gouging the eyes meant to take it off its orbits, though that is not the case. Wikipedia says that "Eye-gouging is the act of pressing or tearing the eye using the fingers or instruments". eye gouging in df presently can gets the eye with a red wound. I think we can close this bug. Or at least change it title to something like "[EMBEDDED] organs can't removed in combat"

(0027890) Toady One (administrator) 2014-07-29 12:40	Yeah, this is the expected behavior. I'm not sure if it was differently wrong before 0.40.01, so I'll mark it as fixed for 0.40.01.