0000448: Dwarves wall themselves in, can't be prevented

(0001005)
Shurhaian (reporter)
2010-04-04 23:00
edited on: 2010-04-04 23:11

This is not guaranteed to happen, and seems to be essentially random. The workaround of building a wall on the unsafe square used to be reliable but is no longer.

No obvious correlation between whether or not it works and the order in which the walls are placed.

(0001012)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-04 23:35
edited on: 2010-04-04 23:38

Unable to reproduce. I've just tested this with eight deadends, all eight placed the wall from the correct side and were not stuck.

1. create dead end
2. place two walls, one as intended, one to block the wrong side to build from
3. suspend both walls
4. unpause and let a few frames pass.
5. unsuspend the wall you want built.

If you're skipping steps 3 and 4 it's entirely possible they're jumping on the task the instant you place it, even with the game paused.. Dwarves seem to plan their entire path in advance, so they make the decision of which side to stand on the instant they accept the task which allows the to ignore a suspended wall because the decision was already made before the suspended wall was placed. this also could occur in 40d.

(0001016)
GauHelldragon (reporter)
2010-04-04 23:58

one workaround to this is to place a door in the spot you DON'T want them to build the wall from. once the door is in place and there's nobody standing there that could be walled in, lock it, and build the wall.

(0001019)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-05 00:05

I guess I should also note that my usual tactic when building pumpstacks is to spend one extra stone to build a fortification before I cut my channels to power the stack. It wastes a stone sure, but stone is plentiful, and it saves a few steps.

(0001061)
Shurhaian (reporter)
2010-04-05 06:17

Placing a door isn't viable when the space you don't want them to build is going to be a fluid-filled destination of a pump stack.

Fortification... may work but certainly isn't pretty in terms of dwarven labour.

I noticed the behaviour even when the "actual" wall was inactive for some time, so I'm not sure it's a pathfinding thing as noted in note 2. Perhaps I've just been singularly unlucky...

(0001641)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-06 18:40

did you follow my steps carefully for forcing them to the side you wanted? I've never seen that fail.

(0004419)
derigo (reporter)
2010-04-20 23:20
edited on: 2010-04-20 23:21

You place a fortification...where?

Like this?

###
#.#
# [
#.#X
#F#
###

###
#F#
#.#
# [X
#.#
###

Does that work?(as in, can magma be pumped into and sucked out of a fortification succesfully?) If so its brilliant. Dwarf labor isn't an issue if you have an Army Corps of Engineers. a la http://magmawiki.com/index.php/40d:Cross-training#Army_corps_of_engineers [^]

(0004521)
Ghede (reporter)
2010-04-21 16:31
edited on: 2010-04-21 16:32

Another workaround. Only build on diagonal paths.

For example:
Build walls in this order.
####
#A~PUMP
B##
####

Walls can only be built orthogonally, but dwarves can move diagonally. It takes a little extra work, but it does the job.

(0018493)
malvado (reporter)
2011-08-12 16:44

I can confirm that while building walls some dwarves can be standing on the tile that is being built even when another tile that has no construction order is avaibable.

Dwarves also tend to get stuck a lot if you are not carefull.

(0018531)
krazykatboy (reporter)
2011-08-16 06:30

I have this problem as well and appears to occur at random, making it difficult to predict and prevent. This will often go unnoticed by me (I have a large fortress) and the system, making them starve or dehydrate.

(0018906)
Kogut (reporter)
2011-10-25 13:59
edited on: 2011-10-25 14:01

"However, in 40d, it was possible to force dwarves not to stand on a particular tile, at least when building constructions, by ordering another one to be built on the unsafe tile and suspending that. Dwarves will no longer respect this" - absolutely unable to reproduce. Can you provide savegame that demonstrates this problem?

EDIT:Anyway, dwarf should check and decide to not stay on the side of wall with area smaller than (for example) 15 tiles

(0018914)
ellindsey (reporter)
2011-10-26 19:16

Cannot reproduce. I have never once had the method of suspending a wall where you don't want the dwarf to stand fail, and I've built many walls and complex constructions in the current version. Please demonstrate a situation that reproduces this bug or provide a save.

(0018915)
Rafal99 (reporter)
2011-10-26 21:51

Placing a suspended wall never failed for me in DF 0.31.XX .

(0018917)
Kogut (reporter)
2011-10-27 00:57

So I suggest to change this from "Dwarves wall themselves in, can't be prevented" to "Dwarves wall themselves in" as it is king of bug (mentioned in WoW but still bug)

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-04-04 22:59	Shurhaian	New Issue
2010-04-04 23:00	Shurhaian	Note Added: 0001005
2010-04-04 23:11	Shurhaian	Note Edited: 0001005	View Revisions
2010-04-04 23:35	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0001012
2010-04-04 23:38	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0001012	View Revisions
2010-04-04 23:58	GauHelldragon	Note Added: 0001016
2010-04-05 00:05	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0001019
2010-04-05 00:28	Qloos	Tag Attached: AI
2010-04-05 06:17	Shurhaian	Note Added: 0001061
2010-04-06 10:34	Justice	Issue Monitored: Justice
2010-04-06 18:40	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0001641
2010-04-14 13:00	lord_chaos22000	Issue Monitored: lord_chaos22000
2010-04-20 23:20	derigo	Note Added: 0004419
2010-04-20 23:21	derigo	Note Edited: 0004419	View Revisions
2010-04-21 16:31	Ghede	Note Added: 0004521
2010-04-21 16:32	Ghede	Note Edited: 0004521	View Revisions
2010-04-21 16:32	Ghede	Note Edited: 0004521	View Revisions
2011-08-12 16:44	malvado	Note Added: 0018493
2011-08-16 06:30	krazykatboy	Note Added: 0018531
2011-10-25 13:59	Kogut	Note Added: 0018906
2011-10-25 14:01	Kogut	Note Edited: 0018906	View Revisions
2011-10-26 00:07	Kogut	Issue Monitored: Kogut
2011-10-26 19:16	ellindsey	Note Added: 0018914
2011-10-26 21:51	Rafal99	Note Added: 0018915
2011-10-27 00:57	Kogut	Note Added: 0018917
2012-01-08 11:31	Dwarfu	Relationship added	related to 0003902
2012-03-05 08:59	Footkerchief	Status	new => resolved
2012-03-05 08:59	Footkerchief	Resolution	open => unable to reproduce
2012-03-05 08:59	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Footkerchief
2012-03-05 08:59	Footkerchief	Resolution	unable to reproduce => no change required
2012-03-17 23:49	Kogut	Issue End Monitor: Kogut

Notes
(0001005) Shurhaian (reporter) 2010-04-04 23:00 edited on: 2010-04-04 23:11	This is not guaranteed to happen, and seems to be essentially random. The workaround of building a wall on the unsafe square used to be reliable but is no longer. No obvious correlation between whether or not it works and the order in which the walls are placed.

(0001012) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-04 23:35 edited on: 2010-04-04 23:38	Unable to reproduce. I've just tested this with eight deadends, all eight placed the wall from the correct side and were not stuck. 1. create dead end 2. place two walls, one as intended, one to block the wrong side to build from 3. suspend both walls 4. unpause and let a few frames pass. 5. unsuspend the wall you want built. If you're skipping steps 3 and 4 it's entirely possible they're jumping on the task the instant you place it, even with the game paused.. Dwarves seem to plan their entire path in advance, so they make the decision of which side to stand on the instant they accept the task which allows the to ignore a suspended wall because the decision was already made before the suspended wall was placed. this also could occur in 40d.

(0001016) GauHelldragon (reporter) 2010-04-04 23:58	one workaround to this is to place a door in the spot you DON'T want them to build the wall from. once the door is in place and there's nobody standing there that could be walled in, lock it, and build the wall.

(0001019) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-05 00:05	I guess I should also note that my usual tactic when building pumpstacks is to spend one extra stone to build a fortification before I cut my channels to power the stack. It wastes a stone sure, but stone is plentiful, and it saves a few steps.

(0001061) Shurhaian (reporter) 2010-04-05 06:17	Placing a door isn't viable when the space you don't want them to build is going to be a fluid-filled destination of a pump stack. Fortification... may work but certainly isn't pretty in terms of dwarven labour. I noticed the behaviour even when the "actual" wall was inactive for some time, so I'm not sure it's a pathfinding thing as noted in note 2. Perhaps I've just been singularly unlucky...

(0001641) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-06 18:40	did you follow my steps carefully for forcing them to the side you wanted? I've never seen that fail.

(0004419) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-20 23:20 edited on: 2010-04-20 23:21	You place a fortification...where? Like this? ### #.# # [ #.#X #F# ### ### #F# #.# # [X #.# ### Does that work?(as in, can magma be pumped into and sucked out of a fortification succesfully?) If so its brilliant. Dwarf labor isn't an issue if you have an Army Corps of Engineers. a la http://magmawiki.com/index.php/40d:Cross-training#Army_corps_of_engineers [^]

(0004521) Ghede (reporter) 2010-04-21 16:31 edited on: 2010-04-21 16:32	Another workaround. Only build on diagonal paths. For example: Build walls in this order. #### #A~PUMP B## #### Walls can only be built orthogonally, but dwarves can move diagonally. It takes a little extra work, but it does the job.

(0018493) malvado (reporter) 2011-08-12 16:44	I can confirm that while building walls some dwarves can be standing on the tile that is being built even when another tile that has no construction order is avaibable. Dwarves also tend to get stuck a lot if you are not carefull.

(0018531) krazykatboy (reporter) 2011-08-16 06:30	I have this problem as well and appears to occur at random, making it difficult to predict and prevent. This will often go unnoticed by me (I have a large fortress) and the system, making them starve or dehydrate.

(0018906) Kogut (reporter) 2011-10-25 13:59 edited on: 2011-10-25 14:01	"However, in 40d, it was possible to force dwarves not to stand on a particular tile, at least when building constructions, by ordering another one to be built on the unsafe tile and suspending that. Dwarves will no longer respect this" - absolutely unable to reproduce. Can you provide savegame that demonstrates this problem? EDIT:Anyway, dwarf should check and decide to not stay on the side of wall with area smaller than (for example) 15 tiles

(0018914) ellindsey (reporter) 2011-10-26 19:16	Cannot reproduce. I have never once had the method of suspending a wall where you don't want the dwarf to stand fail, and I've built many walls and complex constructions in the current version. Please demonstrate a situation that reproduces this bug or provide a save.

(0018915) Rafal99 (reporter) 2011-10-26 21:51	Placing a suspended wall never failed for me in DF 0.31.XX .

(0018917) Kogut (reporter) 2011-10-27 00:57	So I suggest to change this from "Dwarves wall themselves in, can't be prevented" to "Dwarves wall themselves in" as it is king of bug (mentioned in WoW but still bug)