0001047: Butchered cats only produce skulls, possibly related to aging while caged

(0003049)
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-04-12 08:46

You now only get meat/bones/etc if the creature has enough of those tissues in its body. Kittens typically only yield a skull -- you should get more products from a full-grown cat.

(0003059)
garanis (reporter)
2010-04-12 09:11

I've tested this with full-grown cats, it only makes skulls...

(0003061)
Warlord255 (reporter)
2010-04-12 09:18

This may be working as intended, but it's hard to say without Toady's input.

(0003067)
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-04-12 09:35

I just brought four cats to a fresh embark and butchered them.
Cat 1: skin, 6 fat, 6 meat, 4 bone, intestines, skull
Cat 2: same as 1
Cat 3: same as 1 but with 7 meat
Cat 4: same as 3

One slight quirk is that cats stop being kittens at age 1, but don't reach full size until age 2:
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:500]
[BODY_SIZE:1:0:2000]
[BODY_SIZE:2:0:5000]
...
[CHILD:1]

So you could try waiting longer before butchering and see if that helps (you could even change them to CHILD:2 so you don't get the maturation announcement until they're full-grown).

Also, are you sure that your dwarves weren't just whisking all the other stuff off to stockpiles before you checked the shop?

(0003071)
garanis (reporter)
2010-04-12 09:57

I checked the shop immediately after the announcement. This is on three consecutive cats. All that was in the shop was a skull. I kept checking, and all that ever left the shop was skulls that got dumped. Very strange. Maybe I have some odd breed of cat that is only a head.

(0003230)
Tyshalob (reporter)
2010-04-13 03:49

This also happens with puppies. I've slaughtered about half a dozen of them now and gotten results varying from a whole bunch of meat/magically prepared organ(s) with bones and skin to just skulls.

(0003511)
Rafal99 (reporter)
2010-04-14 10:46

If it is intented, and kittens don't produce meat because they are too small, it seems very strange considering that dwarves can eat things like rats or even beetles... Kittens and puppies should produce some minimal amount of food too.

(0005122)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-26 08:20
edited on: 2010-04-26 08:34

you can eat a rat if you're desperate, you cannot make steaks out of it. Sounds reasonable to me.

It is a bit quirky though with the cats showing as "cats" a full year before they're correctly harvest-able. If there's a cut off on the harvest date we should have some way of knowing when that is.

Also... (I need to verify this). If I'm understanding this you're saying...
cat size 1 500 -- skull
cat size 2 2000 -- skull
cat size 3 5000 -- skin, 6 fat, 6/7 meat, 4 bone, intestines, skull

That seems a bit inconsistent to me if true. You would think that cat size 2 would produce a bit more than just a skull. I think I'll go try to verify this behavior with a specific embark so I can breed and eat cats and dogs.

(0013235)
Malibu Stacey (reporter)
2010-10-07 05:02

I think this is more an interface issue than a mechanics bug. in v0.31.16 butchering newly born kittens only produces a skull where as a fully grown tame stray cat which migrated to my fort with migration wave produced cat skin, bones, skull, meat, fat & prepared intestines (I checked the Butchers Workshop using the 't' interface immediately after each struck down announcement). This is consistent with the behaviour we expect with the new material system & is certainly more realistic than 40d where a newly born kitten would produce the same items when butchered as a fully grown cat.

Perhaps a livestock manager/master herder position should be added which can function much like the bookkeeper but adds some butchery info to any "Stray" animals in the Animals Status screen so you know when your livestock are ready to be marked for butchery? All it would need is some text description of how grown the animal is e.g. Scrawny/Average/Plump.

An interim solution is to modify your raws to get the kitten grows to cat announcement when the cat reaches size 3 rather than 2 as Footkerchief suggests.

(0014255)
king doom (reporter)
2010-11-27 15:08

I've managed to get dogs to do this as well - cage them when they are born, wait a few years for them to grow to adults, butcher them and I only got one skull. I was waiting to tag the bits to be taken away to be dumped, so I know dwarves didn't carry anything away from the butchers shop.

(0022192)
ellindsey (reporter)
2012-04-10 06:08

It's all due to how the DF butchering code works. When an animal is butchered, DF first starts by dividing the animal into its independent body parts, determining the size of each body part by multiplying the total creature body size by the relative RELSIZE of each part divided by the total RELSIZE of all the body parts. It then discards any body part which an actual size of less than 185. Body parts over that size yield meat/bones/skin/whatever according to their tissue layers. If a creature has no body parts with sizes over 185, it yields nothing. The once exception are skulls, which have the TOTEMABLE token, which forces them to always drop a body part no matter what size they are.

This is why you see strange, abrupt jumps in the butchering yields as creature size increases. Butchering yields are proportional to the number of body parts a creature has that are over the limit size, not the total creature body size.

Butchers won't touch a corpse that will yield nothing but a skull. They will slaughter a tame animal, even if all it drops is a skull.

(0022209)
Videospirit (reporter)
2012-04-10 20:29

This is happening with turkeys too it seems ;_; a shame.

(0027294)
thvaz (reporter)
2014-07-23 01:07

This was probably related with fortress born animals that wouldn't grow into adult sizes. That was fixed in 0.40.02. I tested and cats give skulls, bones, meat (6) and prepared intestines.

(0027308)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-07-23 07:23

Reminder sent to: thvaz

Would you be able to investigate 0003357 and 0003993 as well?

(0027309)
thvaz (reporter)
2014-07-23 07:44

Will give a further look. The others I think its related with the size modifiers...this one was clear it was a issue with kittens born in the fortress...that Toady fixed in 0.40.02

(0027311)
thvaz (reporter)
2014-07-23 08:08

Ok, in the arena the creatures don't have size modifiers... but rabbits and cavies doesn't even allow to be butchered in the arena.Maybe even their default sizes are too small.I will do an embark with these creatures and see what I get.

(0027313)
thvaz (reporter)
2014-07-23 08:17

Ok, 0003357 and 0003993 I think still are valid, as is 0005135. They have a problem related with the size modifiers.
This one here is related with kitten-sized cats, as the bug Toady fixed in 0.40.02. (Although very thin cats should still give just skull as per the other bugs)

(0027324)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-07-23 10:06

Thanks!

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-04-12 08:23	garanis	New Issue
2010-04-12 08:46	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0003049
2010-04-12 08:57	Kennel	Tag Attached: butcher
2010-04-12 09:11	garanis	Note Added: 0003059
2010-04-12 09:18	Warlord255	Note Added: 0003061
2010-04-12 09:35	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0003067
2010-04-12 09:57	garanis	Note Added: 0003071
2010-04-13 03:49	Tyshalob	Note Added: 0003230
2010-04-14 10:46	Rafal99	Note Added: 0003511
2010-04-14 10:46	Rafal99	Issue Monitored: Rafal99
2010-04-26 08:20	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0005122
2010-04-26 08:34	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0005122	View Revisions
2010-07-27 22:15	Rafal99	Issue End Monitor: Rafal99
2010-10-04 08:57	Footkerchief	Relationship added	parent of 0003357
2010-10-04 08:58	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000739
2010-10-07 05:02	Malibu Stacey	Note Added: 0013235
2010-10-07 05:59	Malibu Stacey	Tag Attached: Not a bug
2010-11-27 15:08	king doom	Note Added: 0014255
2010-11-28 08:48	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0003744
2010-11-30 18:51	Footkerchief	Summary	Butchered cats only produce skulls => Butchered cats only produce skulls, possibly related to aging while caged
2011-02-17 06:47	Logical2u	Relationship added	parent of 0003993
2011-02-22 13:10	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0003964
2011-02-22 13:11	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000874
2011-02-23 08:49	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0001522
2011-11-06 23:48	Dwarfu	Relationship added	parent of 0004950
2012-04-10 06:08	ellindsey	Note Added: 0022192
2012-04-10 20:29	Videospirit	Note Added: 0022209
2014-01-27 18:02	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	related to 0003964
2014-01-29 10:30	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	has duplicate 0004950
2014-07-23 01:07	thvaz	Note Added: 0027294
2014-07-23 01:07	thvaz	Tag Attached: CLOSE THIS
2014-07-23 07:21	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	related to 0003744
2014-07-23 07:23	Footkerchief	Issue Monitored: thvaz
2014-07-23 07:23	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0027308
2014-07-23 07:27	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: Fixed in 0.40.01?
2014-07-23 07:44	thvaz	Note Added: 0027309
2014-07-23 08:08	thvaz	Note Added: 0027311
2014-07-23 08:17	thvaz	Note Added: 0027313
2014-07-23 10:04	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	parent of 0003357
2014-07-23 10:05	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	parent of 0003993
2014-07-23 10:05	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	related to 0001522
2014-07-23 10:06	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0027324
2014-07-23 10:06	Footkerchief	Relationship added	duplicate of 0006334
2014-07-23 10:06	Footkerchief	Status	new => resolved
2014-07-23 10:06	Footkerchief	Resolution	open => duplicate
2014-07-23 10:06	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Footkerchief
2014-07-23 10:22	thvaz	Tag Detached: CLOSE THIS
2014-07-23 11:09	thvaz	Issue End Monitor: thvaz

Notes
(0003049) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-04-12 08:46	You now only get meat/bones/etc if the creature has enough of those tissues in its body. Kittens typically only yield a skull -- you should get more products from a full-grown cat.

(0003059) garanis (reporter) 2010-04-12 09:11	I've tested this with full-grown cats, it only makes skulls...

(0003061) Warlord255 (reporter) 2010-04-12 09:18	This may be working as intended, but it's hard to say without Toady's input.

(0003067) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-04-12 09:35	I just brought four cats to a fresh embark and butchered them. Cat 1: skin, 6 fat, 6 meat, 4 bone, intestines, skull Cat 2: same as 1 Cat 3: same as 1 but with 7 meat Cat 4: same as 3 One slight quirk is that cats stop being kittens at age 1, but don't reach full size until age 2: [BODY_SIZE:0:0:500] [BODY_SIZE:1:0:2000] [BODY_SIZE:2:0:5000] ... [CHILD:1] So you could try waiting longer before butchering and see if that helps (you could even change them to CHILD:2 so you don't get the maturation announcement until they're full-grown). Also, are you sure that your dwarves weren't just whisking all the other stuff off to stockpiles before you checked the shop?

(0003071) garanis (reporter) 2010-04-12 09:57	I checked the shop immediately after the announcement. This is on three consecutive cats. All that was in the shop was a skull. I kept checking, and all that ever left the shop was skulls that got dumped. Very strange. Maybe I have some odd breed of cat that is only a head.

(0003230) Tyshalob (reporter) 2010-04-13 03:49	This also happens with puppies. I've slaughtered about half a dozen of them now and gotten results varying from a whole bunch of meat/magically prepared organ(s) with bones and skin to just skulls.

(0003511) Rafal99 (reporter) 2010-04-14 10:46	If it is intented, and kittens don't produce meat because they are too small, it seems very strange considering that dwarves can eat things like rats or even beetles... Kittens and puppies should produce some minimal amount of food too.

(0005122) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-26 08:20 edited on: 2010-04-26 08:34	you can eat a rat if you're desperate, you cannot make steaks out of it. Sounds reasonable to me. It is a bit quirky though with the cats showing as "cats" a full year before they're correctly harvest-able. If there's a cut off on the harvest date we should have some way of knowing when that is. Also... (I need to verify this). If I'm understanding this you're saying... cat size 1 500 -- skull cat size 2 2000 -- skull cat size 3 5000 -- skin, 6 fat, 6/7 meat, 4 bone, intestines, skull That seems a bit inconsistent to me if true. You would think that cat size 2 would produce a bit more than just a skull. I think I'll go try to verify this behavior with a specific embark so I can breed and eat cats and dogs.

(0013235) Malibu Stacey (reporter) 2010-10-07 05:02	I think this is more an interface issue than a mechanics bug. in v0.31.16 butchering newly born kittens only produces a skull where as a fully grown tame stray cat which migrated to my fort with migration wave produced cat skin, bones, skull, meat, fat & prepared intestines (I checked the Butchers Workshop using the 't' interface immediately after each struck down announcement). This is consistent with the behaviour we expect with the new material system & is certainly more realistic than 40d where a newly born kitten would produce the same items when butchered as a fully grown cat. Perhaps a livestock manager/master herder position should be added which can function much like the bookkeeper but adds some butchery info to any "Stray" animals in the Animals Status screen so you know when your livestock are ready to be marked for butchery? All it would need is some text description of how grown the animal is e.g. Scrawny/Average/Plump. An interim solution is to modify your raws to get the kitten grows to cat announcement when the cat reaches size 3 rather than 2 as Footkerchief suggests.

(0014255) king doom (reporter) 2010-11-27 15:08	I've managed to get dogs to do this as well - cage them when they are born, wait a few years for them to grow to adults, butcher them and I only got one skull. I was waiting to tag the bits to be taken away to be dumped, so I know dwarves didn't carry anything away from the butchers shop.

(0022192) ellindsey (reporter) 2012-04-10 06:08	It's all due to how the DF butchering code works. When an animal is butchered, DF first starts by dividing the animal into its independent body parts, determining the size of each body part by multiplying the total creature body size by the relative RELSIZE of each part divided by the total RELSIZE of all the body parts. It then discards any body part which an actual size of less than 185. Body parts over that size yield meat/bones/skin/whatever according to their tissue layers. If a creature has no body parts with sizes over 185, it yields nothing. The once exception are skulls, which have the TOTEMABLE token, which forces them to always drop a body part no matter what size they are. This is why you see strange, abrupt jumps in the butchering yields as creature size increases. Butchering yields are proportional to the number of body parts a creature has that are over the limit size, not the total creature body size. Butchers won't touch a corpse that will yield nothing but a skull. They will slaughter a tame animal, even if all it drops is a skull.

(0022209) Videospirit (reporter) 2012-04-10 20:29	This is happening with turkeys too it seems ;_; a shame.

(0027294) thvaz (reporter) 2014-07-23 01:07	This was probably related with fortress born animals that wouldn't grow into adult sizes. That was fixed in 0.40.02. I tested and cats give skulls, bones, meat (6) and prepared intestines.

(0027308) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-07-23 07:23	Reminder sent to: thvaz Would you be able to investigate 0003357 and 0003993 as well?

(0027309) thvaz (reporter) 2014-07-23 07:44	Will give a further look. The others I think its related with the size modifiers...this one was clear it was a issue with kittens born in the fortress...that Toady fixed in 0.40.02

(0027311) thvaz (reporter) 2014-07-23 08:08	Ok, in the arena the creatures don't have size modifiers... but rabbits and cavies doesn't even allow to be butchered in the arena.Maybe even their default sizes are too small.I will do an embark with these creatures and see what I get.

(0027313) thvaz (reporter) 2014-07-23 08:17	Ok, 0003357 and 0003993 I think still are valid, as is 0005135. They have a problem related with the size modifiers. This one here is related with kitten-sized cats, as the bug Toady fixed in 0.40.02. (Although very thin cats should still give just skull as per the other bugs)

(0027324) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-07-23 10:06	Thanks!