0000434: Reaction jobs (unlike other jobs) don't look outside burrow for workers and raw materials (works through manager)

Notes
(0000974) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-04 18:40	UPDATE: Hmm its more complicated than that. I constructed a regular smelter alongside the magma smelters, and they can't make pig iron, either. Yet the regular smelter on the surface can. investigating

(0000976) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-04 19:11	UPDATE: Hmm. Ok this is actually a burrow issue. The smelters near the magma were in a burrow I had defined in preparation for restricting my metalworkers down there, and there was no flux stone in the burrow. It is important to note that I had not yet done anything more than define the burrow's location. Deleting the burrow, fixed the issue. So shop jobs that act on specific items, like smelting (smelting is the only job like this that comes to mine, and it may in fact only affect pig iron for all I know) are unable to access resources outside of that burrow, even without any kind of civilian burrow restrictions.

(0001023) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-04-05 00:10	As far as I know, this is exactly what burrows are supposed do to -- any shop placed in a burrow is considered to be assigned to that burrow. Any reason why this would be contrary to intended behavior?

(0001041) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-05 02:26	I can do that, but its gonna be a wall of text: I was under the impression that assigning an area as a burrow would have no effect whatsoever unless you assigned citizens to it, used it as a place to guard for military dwarves, or established a civilian alert restriction. Citizens assigned to a burrow cannot leave it and go get whatever materials are outside of the burrow that they might want to use, so you have to have haulers bring them what they need. I don't see why the workshops should care if they're in a burrow, its the citizens that care. Also, other workshops _don't_ care, only smelters (as far as I've been able to check). A kitchen, for instance, placed in a burrow which does not contain any cookable items, will still allow dwarves who are not assigned to that burrow to cook. (Dwarves assigned to that burrow won't be able to get to the items, so of course they can't cook.) But a smelter in the same situation, not only doesn't let you smelt, it displays that no smelting is possible. Since you can layer burrows on top of each other, say to have a burrow for haulers, a burrow for guards, and a burrow for workers, all with slightly different shapes, but all covering the same general area, I can see this leading to terrible confusion. And since it ONLY affect smelters(again, as far as I can tell), players won't expect the workshop to behave that way (I certainly didn't).

(0001265) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-05 17:34 edited on: 2010-04-05 18:47	UPDATE: This problem seems to affect any workshop job that is a reaction, but not jobs that aren't. So it affects pig iron, and steel, but not smelting at large. All kiln operations, any custom workshop, etc, will also be affected. Reproduction steps(using a smelter, but any reaction workshop task will also work): 1: Build a smelter 2: Smelt some iron 3: Have iron bars, flux stone, and fuel available somewhere away from the smelter 4: Designate a burrow containing the smelter, but not one or more of the pig iron ingredients. 5: check available smelting operations on the smelter: no Smelt Pig Iron task available.

(0001267) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-05 17:45	a wall of text, so you're saying it's spamming you to death with failed attempts to access resources outside of the burrow ?

(0001281) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-05 18:42	no i was talking about my wall of text explanation. There's no job cancellation spam for this issue, as the problem is that you cannot initiate whatever job you're trying to do in the first place.

(0001334) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-05 21:37	alright, well to some degree as footkerchief said this is intended behavior, But it may be you're finding some quirks in the system that may need to be looked at. I haven't personally tried to do anything particularly fancy with burrows, I've been amusing myself with other oddities in the game mechanics. ;P

(0001376) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-06 00:59	No, I don't think its intended behavior. The catagory and title of this bug were kinda wrong, because I had originally misunderstood what was going on. Footkerchief renamed this bug and put it in the right category after I explained it like he asked. He just did it sneaky-like, and didn't say anything about it. ;p

(0001468) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-06 08:58	yea it's cool, I've tried looking at it, but it's hard to say for sure since more general pathfinding issues crop up pretty often as well with or without burrows. makes it hard to tell what's really broken sometimes.

(0001506) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-04-06 09:57	Yeah I'm still not sure whether this is intended behavior or not. It makes it useful for people who want to ensure that their workshops make crafts from a specific stone type, etc., but it's a little weird.

(0001578) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-06 14:15	no it won't work for crafts. If it worked for crafts and stuff, it would affect everything, and it would be a feature as you suggested, rather than a bug. It only affects reactions. (I hope I'm getting my definition of a reaction right, I don't actually know much about the raws). When you have a workshop that's jobs are totally dependent on what resources are available for display, like a smelter, it won't work. ie if there's no iron ore available to be smelted in the burrow 'smelt iron ore' won't be displayed as an option. When you have a workshop that lets you freely define jobs regardless of what materials are available, like a craftshop, or a masonry, etc, you won't see this bug at all. You can always define those jobs, even when the resource isn't available on the map at all. It will just cause the worker to cancel the order. Burrows don't affect this at all, unless you assign the workers to them specifically. There's a bug here somewhere for sure, it's just debatable which behavior is the bug. If Toady wants this behavior for all shops, then it should affect all shops, and the bug becomes "Workshops in burrows WILL use raw materials outside burrow". If this behavior is unintended, then it's a bug as stated. And incidentally, you _could_ use burrows to restrict the materials workers make in the way you describe, but you'd have to assign the workers to the burrow via the burrow menu. [w][select burrow][c][select civie to add]

(0002894) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-04-11 15:53	Alright, I updated the title to reflect the inconsistency.

(0007015) kirvoq (reporter) 2010-05-19 09:10	This bug doesn't actually prevent dwarfs from fulfilling the tasks if those were set before you designate a burrow in the way derigo described or if set via the job manager. It only prevents the player from setting the tasks directly in a workshop.

(0012001) zun (reporter) 2010-08-22 02:25 edited on: 2010-08-22 02:26	I can confirm this as well playing 31.12. Get some charcole Have some bitumonous coal available Place burrow over smelter Notice that even though all ingredients necessary for coke production are present the "No tasks available Check for raw material access and fuel if necessary" message is displayed when trying to smelt some coke at a smelter.

(0014559) Minwaabi (reporter) 2010-12-12 20:28	I can confirm and add some data to this as well. I'm playing 31.16. I added a burrow for ore extraction (legendary miner only) which included my furnace. I started periodically getting the "No tasks available Check for raw material access and fuel if necessary" message. So I figured there was a bug, read this report and deleted the part of the burrow that included the smelter. Problem fixed. Now here's the new data: the burrow that had the smelter also included all the necessary ores to make coke, iron, and copper bars but none of these reactions were possible. In fact the smelter was virtually useless because I couldn't cue any jobs. I think this is because the only dwarf with furnace operator activated was getting a drink in another burrow. I could cue jobs only when he was hanging out in the meeting zone which is in the same burrow as the smelter.

(0014560) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-12-12 21:21 edited on: 2010-12-12 21:21	Thanks for investigating! I updated the summary to reflect your findings.

(0015908) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2011-03-07 11:34	I don't even use burrows really and I FREQUENTLY have to wait for DF to extract its proverbial head from it's proverbial backside before it will allow me to smelt pig iron or steel. smelting raw ores it lets me do immediately, but the reactions for alloys I often end up having to argue with it.

(0016488) Snickersnak (reporter) 2011-03-23 00:33 edited on: 2011-03-23 00:37	Using 0.31.21 the same thing happens with the kitchen and mead. Put your kitchen inside a burrow with no honey and "make mead" isn't available. Extend the burrow to include honey in a stockpile and it becomes available. The presser probably does the same thing with honeycombs (although I didn't test it). To my mind this is more of a design flaw than a bug. There's 2 different design decisions at work, and only one (or a third alternative) should be picked. Actually a lot of the "bugs" with burrows seem to be the result of having an unclear vision of how, exactly, burrows are meant to work (or having a clear vision and it not being fully implemented yet).

(0018264) Steb (reporter) 2011-07-17 05:15	This is a really annoying feature. I can see how it would be useful but it is causing a lot of confusion. Perhaps an option on burrow setup to "restrict workshops to burrow materials (Y/N)" would help clarify things and make solving this problem easier?

(0022261) maluraq (reporter) 2012-04-14 08:31	I see no updates on this bug in a long time and wish to confirm it exists in 34.07 on Linux. I have magma smelters with no burrows, iron, charcoal from wood and flux stone all one Z level away above the smelters and the option to make pig iron or steel does not exist and fails when selected claiming to require fuel? However, the same smelters can create pig iron and steel just fine if done through the manager.

(0024351) vanatteveldt (reporter) 2014-01-25 08:34	Just to confirm that the issue is still open on 0.34.11 (Df2012) on linux. I have a 'SOS' burrow intended for civilian alert that was not activated and no dwarfs are added to the burrow, but my flux stone storage is on a newly dug level not included in the SOS burrow. Pig iron is not enabled in the smelter. Interestingly, the sphalerite storage is also on that level, and while both 'smelt sphalerite' and 'smelt tetrahedrite' are enabled in the smelter, 'make brass bars (ore)' (which uses the same ingredients) is not; so it seems the bug depends on the type of reaction. As far as I am concerned, this is purely a bug and in no way a feature. Why should workshops be restricted by (inactive) burrows, and especially why should some tasks (make brass) be restricted while others (smelt sphalerite/tetrahedrite) aren't?

(0027574) Dwarfu (manager) 2014-07-25 19:59	crossmr, just FYI, all managers can be contacted via forum PMs.

(0027575) Dwarfu (manager) 2014-07-25 19:59	40.04 save from Dame de la Licorne from 0007630: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9149 [^]

(0028543) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-08-07 16:15 edited on: 2014-08-07 16:16	The 0.40.06 changelog included this: "Made buildings with burrows require a connectivity check when searching for items". That should resolve the inconsistent behavior between reactions and other jobs, and thereby this report. Does anyone disagree?

(0028544) Loci (manager) 2014-08-07 16:36 edited on: 2014-08-07 16:42	Most emphatically. I don't know how you are interpreting that snippet, but it certainly doesn't contain sufficient detail to convince me that this problem has been considered, let alone resolved. But, I went ahead and tested it on 40.06 again. Placing a 3x3 burrow over my magma smelter did not disable the hard-coded jobs (smelting ores, etc.) but did disable the reaction jobs (steelmaking, etc.). That is the same buggy behavior identified above, and it took me less than five minutes to verify that it's still broken. Bonus verification: manager jobs are still able to "override" the workshop's nonsensical burrow restrictions too.

(0028553) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-08-07 18:08	It's my understanding that burrow restrictions will eventually become standard for all jobs, reaction or not, but I guess that hasn't happened yet.

(0028596) Toady One (administrator) 2014-08-08 11:36	I've hopefully made this consistent for next time. Feel free to re-report in 0.40.07+ if any of this goes wrong: 1) dwarf assigned to burrow works only in burrow (no change) 2) burrow buildings can use items and dwarves from wherever, unless: 3) you set the new optional flag to restrict workshops to the burrow, in which case the item search is restricted to the burrow (but any dwarf with access to the building and items will still work there) It shouldn't matter whether it is a reaction job or a manager job or whatever, although there are still some bugs to close regarding manager job assignment and spam in general. Any other desired behavior is appropriate for suggestions (not using outside dwarves, etc etc etc). I was just shooting for some consistency.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-04-04 18:12	derigo	New Issue
2010-04-04 18:19	Qloos	Tag Attached: pig iron
2010-04-04 18:19	Qloos	Tag Attached: smelter
2010-04-04 18:30	derigo	Tag Attached: magma
2010-04-04 18:40	derigo	Note Added: 0000974
2010-04-04 19:11	derigo	Note Added: 0000976
2010-04-05 00:10	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0001023
2010-04-05 00:12	Footkerchief	Issue Monitored: Footkerchief
2010-04-05 00:45	Footkerchief	Summary	Magma smelters can't make pig iron => Building in burrow won't use raw materials outside burrow
2010-04-05 00:46	Footkerchief	Category	Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Smelting => Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Items
2010-04-05 02:26	derigo	Note Added: 0001041
2010-04-05 17:34	derigo	Note Added: 0001265
2010-04-05 17:45	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0001267
2010-04-05 18:42	derigo	Note Added: 0001281
2010-04-05 18:47	derigo	Note Edited: 0001265	View Revisions
2010-04-05 21:37	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0001334
2010-04-06 00:59	derigo	Note Added: 0001376
2010-04-06 08:58	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0001468
2010-04-06 09:57	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0001506
2010-04-06 14:15	derigo	Note Added: 0001578
2010-04-11 15:53	Footkerchief	Summary	Building in burrow won't use raw materials outside burrow => Reaction jobs won't use raw materials outside burrow, but other jobs will
2010-04-11 15:53	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0002894
2010-04-11 15:54	Footkerchief	Summary	Reaction jobs won't use raw materials outside burrow, but other jobs will => Reaction jobs don't use raw materials outside burrow, but other jobs do
2010-04-14 10:46	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0001135
2010-04-16 01:07	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0001185
2010-05-01 10:36	ra2phoenix	Issue Monitored: ra2phoenix
2010-05-19 09:10	kirvoq	Note Added: 0007015
2010-06-16 11:12	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000262
2010-07-03 06:00	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0002262
2010-07-13 15:45	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0002656
2010-07-18 01:56	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0002730
2010-07-24 00:06	Footkerchief	Sticky Issue	No => Yes
2010-07-24 08:34	Footkerchief	Relationship added	parent of 0001669
2010-08-22 02:25	zun	Note Added: 0012001
2010-08-22 02:26	zun	Note Edited: 0012001	View Revisions
2010-08-22 05:34	Dwarfu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0002799
2010-09-01 18:52	RossM	Issue Monitored: RossM
2010-10-16 07:31	danaris	Issue Monitored: danaris
2010-11-26 16:47	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0003734
2010-12-03 07:27	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	related to 0003734
2010-12-09 08:13	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	related to 0001669
2010-12-09 10:52	Footkerchief	Summary	Reaction jobs don't use raw materials outside burrow, but other jobs do => Reaction jobs (unlike other jobs) don't look outside burrow for raw materials, unless job is queued through manager
2010-12-12 20:28	Minwaabi	Note Added: 0014559
2010-12-12 21:20	Footkerchief	Summary	Reaction jobs (unlike other jobs) don't look outside burrow for raw materials, unless job is queued through manager => Reaction jobs (unlike other jobs) don't look outside burrow for workers and raw materials (works through manager)
2010-12-12 21:21	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0014560
2010-12-12 21:21	Footkerchief	Note Edited: 0014560	View Revisions
2011-03-07 11:34	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0015908
2011-03-21 07:08	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0004262
2011-03-23 00:33	Snickersnak	Note Added: 0016488
2011-03-23 00:37	Snickersnak	Note Edited: 0016488	View Revisions
2011-03-23 07:04	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0004309
2011-03-30 10:31	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	has duplicate 0004262
2011-04-13 14:27	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0004508
2011-07-17 05:15	Steb	Note Added: 0018264
2011-07-28 09:58	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0004582
2012-02-19 02:13	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0005277
2012-03-01 11:10	Dwarfu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0005523
2012-04-14 08:31	maluraq	Note Added: 0022261
2012-05-18 06:37	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0005912
2012-05-23 13:39	Buglist	Issue Monitored: Buglist
2012-05-24 15:13	arclance	Issue Monitored: arclance
2012-07-22 01:16	Knight Otu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0006104
2012-09-11 21:10	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0005934
2014-01-25 08:34	vanatteveldt	Note Added: 0024351
2014-02-25 10:07	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0005261
2014-02-25 10:57	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	has duplicate 0005261
2014-07-10 19:44	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0007000
2014-07-14 13:27	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0006784
2014-07-18 07:54	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0007445
2014-07-18 07:55	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0007447
2014-07-18 07:56	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	related to 0007445
2014-07-25 19:57	Dwarfu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0007630
2014-07-25 19:59	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0027574
2014-07-25 19:59	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0027575
2014-07-25 20:00	Dwarfu	Assigned To	=> Dwarfu
2014-07-25 20:00	Dwarfu	Status	new => acknowledged
2014-07-30 13:19	Dwarfu	Issue Monitored: Dwarfu
2014-08-02 11:37	Dwarfu	Status	acknowledged => confirmed
2014-08-07 16:14	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: Fixed in 0.40.06?
2014-08-07 16:15	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0028543
2014-08-07 16:15	Footkerchief	Status	confirmed => needs feedback
2014-08-07 16:16	Footkerchief	Note Edited: 0028543	View Revisions
2014-08-07 16:36	Loci	Note Added: 0028544
2014-08-07 16:42	Loci	Note Edited: 0028544	View Revisions
2014-08-07 17:55	lethosor	Status	needs feedback => confirmed
2014-08-07 18:08	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0028553
2014-08-08 11:36	Toady One	Note Added: 0028596
2014-08-08 11:36	Toady One	Status	confirmed => resolved
2014-08-08 11:36	Toady One	Fixed in Version	=> Next Version
2014-08-08 11:36	Toady One	Resolution	open => fixed
2014-08-08 11:36	Toady One	Assigned To	Dwarfu => Toady One
2014-08-09 11:15	Dwarfu	Issue End Monitor: Dwarfu
2014-08-11 18:21	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0007963
2014-09-14 09:43	lethosor	Sticky Issue	Yes => No