Dwarf Fortress Bug Tracker - Dwarf Fortress
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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0000023Dwarf FortressCombat -- Generalpublic2010-04-01 14:542014-07-18 00:22
Reporternichaey 
Assigned ToToady One 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusresolvedResolutionfixed 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0000023: Bite attacks frequently glance away or are generally ineffective
DescriptionI have team of alligators duking it out in arena (first thing I did with new version), but they can't seem to kill each other. I assume control of one and the combat logs are full of
alligator n bites alligator m in the ____ but the blow glances

I'm pretty sure alligator teeth are harder then alligator skin :P
Steps To Reproducemake alligators fight each other :P
Additional Information
Tagscombat
Relationships
related to 0000033resolved Toady One Bronze colossus, skeletal creatures, fleshballs, and others are impossible to kill 
parent of 0000744resolved Toady One Wolf bite unable to penetrate silk clothing, due to teeth being only as hard as skin 
parent of 0000802closed Footkerchief War dogs are useless 
has duplicate 0000270closed Logical2u Biting alligators merely dent. 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2010-04-01 14:54nichaeyNew Issue
2010-04-01 14:56B0015Note Added: 0000016
2010-04-01 15:01DwarfuNote Added: 0000018
2010-04-01 15:52SirPenguinNote Added: 0000026
2010-04-01 22:28DoctorZuberNote Added: 0000105
2010-04-02 00:18nichaeyNote Added: 0000125
2010-04-02 05:56TodestoolTag Attached: combat
2010-04-02 22:59bradbNote Added: 0000432
2010-04-03 15:08FootkerchiefCategoryGeneral => Combat -- General
2010-04-08 12:24SirPenguinNote Added: 0002121
2010-04-08 18:49FootkerchiefRelationship addedparent of 0000744
2010-04-08 18:51FootkerchiefSummaryGlancing bites => Bite attacks frequently glance away or are generally ineffective
2010-04-28 03:39derigoNote Added: 0005497
2010-04-28 08:36Logical2uRelationship addedparent of 0000270
2010-04-28 08:36Logical2uRelationship addedparent of 0000802
2010-04-28 08:50Logical2uRelationship deletedparent of 0000270
2010-04-28 08:50Logical2uRelationship addedhas duplicate 0000270
2010-06-02 14:21gruftschreckNote Added: 0007581
2010-06-02 14:34Jiri PetruTag Attached: Probable Quick Fix
2010-06-02 14:35Jiri PetruNote Added: 0007582
2010-06-06 05:27Toady OneNote Added: 0007784
2010-06-06 05:27Toady OneAssigned To => Toady One
2010-06-06 05:27Toady OneStatusnew => acknowledged
2010-06-06 05:27Toady OneTag Detached: Probable Quick Fix
2010-06-06 05:36CelIssue Monitored: Cel
2010-07-03 20:10BleblemanIssue Monitored: Blebleman
2010-07-03 20:37smjjamesNote Added: 0009602
2010-07-03 20:46smjjamesNote Edited: 0009602bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0009602#r3704
2010-07-05 03:56Khym ChanurIssue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2010-07-14 08:25FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0000033
2010-07-14 11:40TomiTapioNote Added: 0010248
2010-07-14 11:43FootkerchiefNote Added: 0010249
2010-07-14 11:53TomiTapioNote Edited: 0010248bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0010248#r3978
2010-08-14 12:48FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0003025
2012-02-20 18:52FootkerchiefRelationship deletedrelated to 0003025
2012-02-27 00:08thvazNote Added: 0020789
2012-02-27 00:08thvazIssue Monitored: thvaz
2012-03-28 03:25thvazNote Added: 0021817
2012-03-31 05:29thvazTag Attached: close
2012-03-31 05:29thvazTag Detached: close
2012-03-31 05:30thvazTag Attached: CLOSE THIS
2012-03-31 07:41FootkerchiefNote Added: 0021941
2012-03-31 07:41FootkerchiefStatusacknowledged => resolved
2012-03-31 07:41FootkerchiefResolutionopen => fixed
2012-03-31 07:41FootkerchiefTag Detached: CLOSE THIS
2012-03-31 08:20thvazIssue End Monitor: thvaz
2014-07-18 00:22CelIssue End Monitor: Cel

Notes
(0000016)
B0015   
2010-04-01 14:56   
This also happens with two bronze colossi.
(0000018)
Dwarfu   
2010-04-01 15:01   
Is this actually a bug? Maybe it is just the way you are envisioning the words. Perhaps the alligator bit it sideways and couldn't clamp down, so that the side of his jaw just kind of slid closed on the side of the other one, not actually penetrating it, but, you know, glancing...
(0000026)
SirPenguin   
2010-04-01 15:52   
I had a similar problem in adventurer mode. Me vs. a bear, with my guy fighting with only a shield, ended up being a neverending fight. He'd glancing blow me, and I'd glancing blow him. Not one injury. Seems to be a glancing blow type of problem!
(0000105)
DoctorZuber   
2010-04-01 22:28   
I've tried alligators against a few different things in the arena and I have to say I'm very afraid of alligators suddenly. very, very afraid...
(0000125)
nichaey   
2010-04-02 00:18   
@dwarfu
Yeah, I considered that, but that would be a rare occurrence, unlike the 100% of the time it happens now.
Considering I let them fight for like 10 minutes and the only thing damaged were the eyes.
(0000432)
bradb   
2010-04-02 22:59   
I think skin needs some tweaking so that it isn't so strong.

"You strike Bat Man 1 in the throat with your Bat Man 1's right eye tooth, but the attack glances away!"

"You strike Bat Man 1 in the right eyelid with your Bat Man 1's right eye tooth, but the attack glances away!"

Yes. I know I am using an improvised weapon and adding in another variable, but either way something here needs a tweak.
(0002121)
SirPenguin   
2010-04-08 12:24   
I'm almost positive this is due to MANY toothed creatures lacking the EDGE tag to their teeth attacks. Dogs and cats have it and they don't seem to have this problem.
(0005497)
derigo   
2010-04-28 03:39   
see 0000744

It's not that skin is too strong, it's that teeth (and horns and hooves and many other things) are only as hard as skin when they should be much harder.
(0007581)
gruftschreck   
2010-06-02 14:21   
maybe someone could tell toadyone about this bug? It's an easy simple fix, which would be nice to be already included in the next version (and has not to be modded after release)...
(0007582)
Jiri Petru   
2010-06-02 14:35   
Well, I've attached the quick fix tag.
(0007784)
Toady One   
2010-06-06 05:27   
From 0000744:

Ah, cool. I had noticed alligators couldn't kill each other, but I thought there was more going on so I filed it with the combat rebalance stuff. I'm just going to use bone values for the necessary templates until something better comes up. I made nails more elastic. Good values are annoying to find in general.

I'm going to leave [this issue] open, as robes still seemed overpowered faced with a multi-grizzly assault on a dwarf and I want to run the numbers there later.
(0009602)
smjjames   
2010-07-03 20:37   
(edited on: 2010-07-03 20:46)
Speaking of this one, the bite attacks of sharks seems a bit weaker than they should be, but they pretty quickly tear through by the second or third turn.

It may be more of an opinion here since dwarves and adventurers wouldn't encounter sharks aside from undead ones anyhow.
(0010248)
TomiTapio   
2010-07-14 11:40   
(edited on: 2010-07-14 11:53)
Found tooth enamel Young's modulus at
http://www.ruthtrumpold.id.au/designtech/pmwiki.php?n=Main.YoungSModulus [^]
83 GPa and 12,000,000 lbf/in.

Tooth hardness science stuff http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-14392003000300011 [^]

"From the load versus depth of indentation curve Young's modulus was found to be typically 8.3×10^10 Pa and the yield stress to be 3.3×10^8 Pa." http://www.springerlink.com/content/w125706571032231/ [^]

Some bone data: www.tcd.ie/bioengineering/documents/LectureBoneProps1.ppt

Bone and glass and copper: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_417.html [^]

http://www.soe.uoguelph.ca/webfiles/kgordon/Academic%20Courses/Bone_for_Biomaterials.htm [^]

human vs cow bone! http://www.engin.umich.edu/class/bme456/bonefunction/bonefunction.htm [^]

silk silk bone http://www.complore.com/properties-materials-tensile-strength [^]

Sorry to spam but I found stuff for you.
(0010249)
Footkerchief   
2010-07-14 11:43   
Reminder sent to: Toady One

Tooth material properties posted at 0000023:0010248.
(0020789)
thvaz   
2012-02-27 00:08   
Toady got around to change the teeth values in the raws? As of 34.02, unarmored characters are in bad trouble against creatures with teeth...
(0021817)
thvaz   
2012-03-28 03:25   
I tested intensively in arena mode.

Alligator vs alligator = one alligator is always killed fast. Tested 15 times.
Alligator vs dwarf with silk clothing = dwarf always dies very fast, Few "defleted by"
Dwarf with silkvs wolf = dwarf wins though always heavily wounded.

This bug was reported before targeted attacks, so it was common for creatures to spend a long time hitting non vital body parts, but this is not the case anymore. I think we may close it.
(0021941)
Footkerchief   
2012-03-31 07:41   
Okay, I guess we can close this.