0000023: Bite attacks frequently glance away or are generally ineffective

(0000016)
B0015 (reporter)
2010-04-01 14:56

This also happens with two bronze colossi.

(0000018)
Dwarfu (manager)
2010-04-01 15:01

Is this actually a bug? Maybe it is just the way you are envisioning the words. Perhaps the alligator bit it sideways and couldn't clamp down, so that the side of his jaw just kind of slid closed on the side of the other one, not actually penetrating it, but, you know, glancing...

(0000026)
SirPenguin (reporter)
2010-04-01 15:52

I had a similar problem in adventurer mode. Me vs. a bear, with my guy fighting with only a shield, ended up being a neverending fight. He'd glancing blow me, and I'd glancing blow him. Not one injury. Seems to be a glancing blow type of problem!

(0000105)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-01 22:28

I've tried alligators against a few different things in the arena and I have to say I'm very afraid of alligators suddenly. very, very afraid...

(0000125)
nichaey (reporter)
2010-04-02 00:18

@dwarfu
Yeah, I considered that, but that would be a rare occurrence, unlike the 100% of the time it happens now.
Considering I let them fight for like 10 minutes and the only thing damaged were the eyes.

(0000432)
bradb (reporter)
2010-04-02 22:59

I think skin needs some tweaking so that it isn't so strong.

"You strike Bat Man 1 in the throat with your Bat Man 1's right eye tooth, but the attack glances away!"

"You strike Bat Man 1 in the right eyelid with your Bat Man 1's right eye tooth, but the attack glances away!"

Yes. I know I am using an improvised weapon and adding in another variable, but either way something here needs a tweak.

(0002121)
SirPenguin (reporter)
2010-04-08 12:24

I'm almost positive this is due to MANY toothed creatures lacking the EDGE tag to their teeth attacks. Dogs and cats have it and they don't seem to have this problem.

(0005497)
derigo (reporter)
2010-04-28 03:39

see 0000744

It's not that skin is too strong, it's that teeth (and horns and hooves and many other things) are only as hard as skin when they should be much harder.

(0007581)
gruftschreck (reporter)
2010-06-02 14:21

maybe someone could tell toadyone about this bug? It's an easy simple fix, which would be nice to be already included in the next version (and has not to be modded after release)...

(0007582)
Jiri Petru (reporter)
2010-06-02 14:35

Well, I've attached the quick fix tag.

(0007784)
Toady One (administrator)
2010-06-06 05:27

From 0000744:

Ah, cool. I had noticed alligators couldn't kill each other, but I thought there was more going on so I filed it with the combat rebalance stuff. I'm just going to use bone values for the necessary templates until something better comes up. I made nails more elastic. Good values are annoying to find in general.

I'm going to leave [this issue] open, as robes still seemed overpowered faced with a multi-grizzly assault on a dwarf and I want to run the numbers there later.

(0009602)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-07-03 20:37
edited on: 2010-07-03 20:46

Speaking of this one, the bite attacks of sharks seems a bit weaker than they should be, but they pretty quickly tear through by the second or third turn.

It may be more of an opinion here since dwarves and adventurers wouldn't encounter sharks aside from undead ones anyhow.

(0010248)
TomiTapio (reporter)
2010-07-14 11:40
edited on: 2010-07-14 11:53

Found tooth enamel Young's modulus at
http://www.ruthtrumpold.id.au/designtech/pmwiki.php?n=Main.YoungSModulus [^]
83 GPa and 12,000,000 lbf/in.

Tooth hardness science stuff http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-14392003000300011 [^]

"From the load versus depth of indentation curve Young's modulus was found to be typically 8.3×10^10 Pa and the yield stress to be 3.3×10^8 Pa." http://www.springerlink.com/content/w125706571032231/ [^]

Some bone data: www.tcd.ie/bioengineering/documents/LectureBoneProps1.ppt

Bone and glass and copper: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_417.html [^]

http://www.soe.uoguelph.ca/webfiles/kgordon/Academic%20Courses/Bone_for_Biomaterials.htm [^]

human vs cow bone! http://www.engin.umich.edu/class/bme456/bonefunction/bonefunction.htm [^]

silk silk bone http://www.complore.com/properties-materials-tensile-strength [^]

Sorry to spam but I found stuff for you.

(0010249)
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-07-14 11:43

Reminder sent to: Toady One

Tooth material properties posted at 0000023:0010248.

(0020789)
thvaz (reporter)
2012-02-27 00:08

Toady got around to change the teeth values in the raws? As of 34.02, unarmored characters are in bad trouble against creatures with teeth...

(0021817)
thvaz (reporter)
2012-03-28 03:25

I tested intensively in arena mode.

Alligator vs alligator = one alligator is always killed fast. Tested 15 times.
Alligator vs dwarf with silk clothing = dwarf always dies very fast, Few "defleted by"
Dwarf with silkvs wolf = dwarf wins though always heavily wounded.

This bug was reported before targeted attacks, so it was common for creatures to spend a long time hitting non vital body parts, but this is not the case anymore. I think we may close it.

(0021941)
Footkerchief (manager)
2012-03-31 07:41

Okay, I guess we can close this.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-04-01 14:54	nichaey	New Issue
2010-04-01 14:56	B0015	Note Added: 0000016
2010-04-01 15:01	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0000018
2010-04-01 15:52	SirPenguin	Note Added: 0000026
2010-04-01 22:28	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000105
2010-04-02 00:18	nichaey	Note Added: 0000125
2010-04-02 05:56	Todestool	Tag Attached: combat
2010-04-02 22:59	bradb	Note Added: 0000432
2010-04-03 15:08	Footkerchief	Category	General => Combat -- General
2010-04-08 12:24	SirPenguin	Note Added: 0002121
2010-04-08 18:49	Footkerchief	Relationship added	parent of 0000744
2010-04-08 18:51	Footkerchief	Summary	Glancing bites => Bite attacks frequently glance away or are generally ineffective
2010-04-28 03:39	derigo	Note Added: 0005497
2010-04-28 08:36	Logical2u	Relationship added	parent of 0000270
2010-04-28 08:36	Logical2u	Relationship added	parent of 0000802
2010-04-28 08:50	Logical2u	Relationship deleted	parent of 0000270
2010-04-28 08:50	Logical2u	Relationship added	has duplicate 0000270
2010-06-02 14:21	gruftschreck	Note Added: 0007581
2010-06-02 14:34	Jiri Petru	Tag Attached: Probable Quick Fix
2010-06-02 14:35	Jiri Petru	Note Added: 0007582
2010-06-06 05:27	Toady One	Note Added: 0007784
2010-06-06 05:27	Toady One	Assigned To	=> Toady One
2010-06-06 05:27	Toady One	Status	new => acknowledged
2010-06-06 05:27	Toady One	Tag Detached: Probable Quick Fix
2010-06-06 05:36	Cel	Issue Monitored: Cel
2010-07-03 20:10	Blebleman	Issue Monitored: Blebleman
2010-07-03 20:37	smjjames	Note Added: 0009602
2010-07-03 20:46	smjjames	Note Edited: 0009602	View Revisions
2010-07-05 03:56	Khym Chanur	Issue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2010-07-14 08:25	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000033
2010-07-14 11:40	TomiTapio	Note Added: 0010248
2010-07-14 11:43	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0010249
2010-07-14 11:53	TomiTapio	Note Edited: 0010248	View Revisions
2010-08-14 12:48	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0003025
2012-02-20 18:52	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	related to 0003025
2012-02-27 00:08	thvaz	Note Added: 0020789
2012-02-27 00:08	thvaz	Issue Monitored: thvaz
2012-03-28 03:25	thvaz	Note Added: 0021817
2012-03-31 05:29	thvaz	Tag Attached: close
2012-03-31 05:29	thvaz	Tag Detached: close
2012-03-31 05:30	thvaz	Tag Attached: CLOSE THIS
2012-03-31 07:41	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0021941
2012-03-31 07:41	Footkerchief	Status	acknowledged => resolved
2012-03-31 07:41	Footkerchief	Resolution	open => fixed
2012-03-31 07:41	Footkerchief	Tag Detached: CLOSE THIS
2012-03-31 08:20	thvaz	Issue End Monitor: thvaz
2014-07-18 00:22	Cel	Issue End Monitor: Cel

Notes
(0000016) B0015 (reporter) 2010-04-01 14:56	This also happens with two bronze colossi.

(0000018) Dwarfu (manager) 2010-04-01 15:01	Is this actually a bug? Maybe it is just the way you are envisioning the words. Perhaps the alligator bit it sideways and couldn't clamp down, so that the side of his jaw just kind of slid closed on the side of the other one, not actually penetrating it, but, you know, glancing...

(0000026) SirPenguin (reporter) 2010-04-01 15:52	I had a similar problem in adventurer mode. Me vs. a bear, with my guy fighting with only a shield, ended up being a neverending fight. He'd glancing blow me, and I'd glancing blow him. Not one injury. Seems to be a glancing blow type of problem!

(0000105) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-01 22:28	I've tried alligators against a few different things in the arena and I have to say I'm very afraid of alligators suddenly. very, very afraid...

(0000125) nichaey (reporter) 2010-04-02 00:18	@dwarfu Yeah, I considered that, but that would be a rare occurrence, unlike the 100% of the time it happens now. Considering I let them fight for like 10 minutes and the only thing damaged were the eyes.

(0000432) bradb (reporter) 2010-04-02 22:59	I think skin needs some tweaking so that it isn't so strong. "You strike Bat Man 1 in the throat with your Bat Man 1's right eye tooth, but the attack glances away!" "You strike Bat Man 1 in the right eyelid with your Bat Man 1's right eye tooth, but the attack glances away!" Yes. I know I am using an improvised weapon and adding in another variable, but either way something here needs a tweak.

(0002121) SirPenguin (reporter) 2010-04-08 12:24	I'm almost positive this is due to MANY toothed creatures lacking the EDGE tag to their teeth attacks. Dogs and cats have it and they don't seem to have this problem.

(0005497) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-28 03:39	see 0000744 It's not that skin is too strong, it's that teeth (and horns and hooves and many other things) are only as hard as skin when they should be much harder.

(0007581) gruftschreck (reporter) 2010-06-02 14:21	maybe someone could tell toadyone about this bug? It's an easy simple fix, which would be nice to be already included in the next version (and has not to be modded after release)...

(0007582) Jiri Petru (reporter) 2010-06-02 14:35	Well, I've attached the quick fix tag.

(0007784) Toady One (administrator) 2010-06-06 05:27	From 0000744: Ah, cool. I had noticed alligators couldn't kill each other, but I thought there was more going on so I filed it with the combat rebalance stuff. I'm just going to use bone values for the necessary templates until something better comes up. I made nails more elastic. Good values are annoying to find in general. I'm going to leave [this issue] open, as robes still seemed overpowered faced with a multi-grizzly assault on a dwarf and I want to run the numbers there later.

(0009602) smjjames (reporter) 2010-07-03 20:37 edited on: 2010-07-03 20:46	Speaking of this one, the bite attacks of sharks seems a bit weaker than they should be, but they pretty quickly tear through by the second or third turn. It may be more of an opinion here since dwarves and adventurers wouldn't encounter sharks aside from undead ones anyhow.

(0010248) TomiTapio (reporter) 2010-07-14 11:40 edited on: 2010-07-14 11:53	Found tooth enamel Young's modulus at http://www.ruthtrumpold.id.au/designtech/pmwiki.php?n=Main.YoungSModulus [^] 83 GPa and 12,000,000 lbf/in. Tooth hardness science stuff http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-14392003000300011 [^] "From the load versus depth of indentation curve Young's modulus was found to be typically 8.3×10^10 Pa and the yield stress to be 3.3×10^8 Pa." http://www.springerlink.com/content/w125706571032231/ [^] Some bone data: www.tcd.ie/bioengineering/documents/LectureBoneProps1.ppt Bone and glass and copper: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_417.html [^] http://www.soe.uoguelph.ca/webfiles/kgordon/Academic%20Courses/Bone_for_Biomaterials.htm [^] human vs cow bone! http://www.engin.umich.edu/class/bme456/bonefunction/bonefunction.htm [^] silk silk bone http://www.complore.com/properties-materials-tensile-strength [^] Sorry to spam but I found stuff for you.

(0010249) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-07-14 11:43	Reminder sent to: Toady One Tooth material properties posted at 0000023:0010248.

(0020789) thvaz (reporter) 2012-02-27 00:08	Toady got around to change the teeth values in the raws? As of 34.02, unarmored characters are in bad trouble against creatures with teeth...

(0021817) thvaz (reporter) 2012-03-28 03:25	I tested intensively in arena mode. Alligator vs alligator = one alligator is always killed fast. Tested 15 times. Alligator vs dwarf with silk clothing = dwarf always dies very fast, Few "defleted by" Dwarf with silkvs wolf = dwarf wins though always heavily wounded. This bug was reported before targeted attacks, so it was common for creatures to spend a long time hitting non vital body parts, but this is not the case anymore. I think we may close it.

(0021941) Footkerchief (manager) 2012-03-31 07:41	Okay, I guess we can close this.