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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0000744Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Combatpublic2010-04-07 15:462010-06-09 07:56
Reporterestokien 
Assigned ToToady One 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityhave not tried
StatusresolvedResolutionfixed 
PlatformPCOSWindows XP HomeOS VersionSP 3
Product Version0.31.01 
Target VersionFixed in Version0.31.06 
Summary0000744: Wolf bite unable to penetrate silk clothing, due to teeth being only as hard as skin
DescriptionI had a butcher dwarf go berserk after failing to make an artifact and it entered into combat with some soldiers and a tame wolf from an Elven Caravan. The wolf made a large number of bite attacks in this combat, every one of which was deflected by the clothing of the dwarf (mostly cave spider silk as I recall). It was less effective then the mostly untrained fists of the dwarves fighting at doing any damage. I haven't gone diving into the files, but it seems like wolf bites may be underpowered in damage from where they should be (or else silk and dwarf punches are overpowered).
TagsNo tags attached.
Attached Files

- Relationships
has duplicate 0000802closedFootkerchief War dogs are useless 
has duplicate 0001987closedLogical2u (Pigtail Dress) > Trained War Dog x 16 
child of 0000023resolvedToady One Bite attacks frequently glance away or are generally ineffective 

-  Notes
(0002108)
Zas (reporter)
2010-04-08 11:42

 I actually have a suspicion, that it is clothing that became overpowered. Because now I recall, that sometimes stones from stone-fall traps are also deflected by clothes. Blunt attacks, bites and grabs are pretty much useless through clothing.
(0002110)
SirPenguin (reporter)
2010-04-08 11:48

 Perhaps all bites are using blunt damage ala GCS?
(0002111)
Drone (reporter)
2010-04-08 11:49

 It seems that all the layer stuff is working properly but hasn't been tweaked to being uh, sensible, yet I would assume?
(0002122)
CaptainFailmore (reporter)
2010-04-08 12:27

 Silk clothes can also deflect melee attacks from demons.

It's kind of scary, actually.
(0002227)
Draco18s (reporter)
2010-04-08 19:41

 Booted up the arena and put a dwarf wearing GCS silk shirt, coat, and trousers against a dwarf with a bronze breastplate.

The silk guy won.

They were of course, without weapons and skill-less.

Same deal, but with an iron breastplate. Iron lost.

Steel: steel won. But it was close. Steel was wounded and feel unconscious, silk had just beat up iron, so was tired and wounded. Steel recovered his wounds (?) and came back to beat up the wounded silk wearer.
(0002609)
MysteriousAges (reporter)
2010-04-10 11:07

 A beserk stonecrafter has killed something like 10 dogs after being swarmed by them. The dogs are dead, and the stonecrafter is basically unscathed.
(0003631)
Rafal99 (reporter)
2010-04-14 23:59

 I have seen wolf bite glance of SKIN of my woodcutter...
Something is wrong here.
(0004116)
derigo (reporter)
2010-04-18 14:56

 maybe he had a very high 'toughness?' ;p
(0005489)
derigo (reporter)
2010-04-28 01:30

 I've been rooting around in the raws lately, and I think I might've found the reason for this. If so its a quick fix.

raw quote of pertinent bits:
[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:STONE_TEMPLATE]
 ...
    Used for blunt-force combat, measured in KPa. Data scattered around the net (used compressive strength). All very spotty.
    [IMPACT_YIELD:120000] used marble
    [IMPACT_FRACTURE:120000]
    [IMPACT_ELASTICITY:100]
...
[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE]
...
    [IMPACT_YIELD:1080000] used average for stainless steel
    [IMPACT_FRACTURE:1080000]
    [IMPACT_ELASTICITY:1000]
...

[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SKIN_TEMPLATE]
...
    [IMPACT_YIELD:10000]
    [IMPACT_FRACTURE:10000]
    [IMPACT_ELASTICITY:50000]
...

[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:TOOTH_TEMPLATE]
...
    [IMPACT_YIELD:10000]
    [IMPACT_FRACTURE:10000]
    [IMPACT_ELASTICITY:100]
...

Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this mean skin is as hard as teeth, but much more flexible? The same numbers are used for all organs, leather, wood, horn, nails, hoof, hair, and other things. But take a look at bone:

[MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:BONE_TEMPLATE]
...
    [IMPACT_YIELD:200000]
    [IMPACT_FRACTURE:200000]
    [IMPACT_ELASTICITY:100]
...

So bone is almost twice as hard than stone and 20 times harder than teeth. Keep in mind this is for blunt force calculations only, sheering and compressive forces account for slashing and stabbing attacks respectively.

The numbers for various metals all get overwritten by the specifc raw entries for each specific metal. But there's no equivalent of that for tissue materials like teeth so WYSIWYG hardness wise unless a creature creates a custom material on the fly in its own raw. I don't recall seeing any creatures do that with skin, teeth, hooves, horns, or muscle.

I'm going to try playing with these numbers a bit in the arena and see what happens.
(0005494)
derigo (reporter)
2010-04-28 02:06
edited on: 2010-04-28 03:54

 It worked! :D
I just copied the impact yeild, impact fracture, and impact elasticity values from bone onto teeth, horn, hoof, and shell, and made up something imbetween stone and bone for nail. Now grizzly bears and dogs can bite through clothing!

It looks like toady (or one of his helpers) spent a considerable amount of time and energy looking up reasonable values for the shear yield etc (tensile strength) for various substances. He left notes throughout the raw about where he got his information from. But it looks like he was copying all the templates from SKIN, and never got around to putting reasonable impact values in for things like teeth, even though those numbers do get used by bite attacks and whatnot. Copying the bone values onto the other materials will make them behave more like they should, but its not accurate to the level of detail present in the rest of the raw.

So, you can make bite attacks 'work' by doing the copy, but until toady puts his numbers in, or someone else finds or makes up really good ones, it's not going to be terribly accurate.

And be warned! Doing this change will make anything that uses natural attacks that much scarier! Elephants, forgotten beasts, demons, anything that bites or claws is all of the sudden going to be very scary.


Oh and as to the guys equipped in silk (with a breastplate!) beating guys in full plate, that's probably because without all the extra weight of the armor involved, the guy in silk gets first strike, or multiple first strikes. If you made them very high level swordsmen (or whatever) they can probably kill or disable each other in 1 or 2 hits, so its kind of a big deal. That'll only show up in duels. If you had more fighters on each side, the plate guys would come out way ahead.


EDIT: the raw to edit btw is
material_template_default.txt
forgot to mention that.
(0005713)
derigo (reporter)
2010-04-29 16:51

 Someone asked how to do this change, so I made a small guide.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=55798.0 [^]
(0007783)
Toady One (administrator)
2010-06-06 05:25

 Ah, cool. I had noticed alligators couldn't kill each other, but I thought there was more going on so I filed it with the combat rebalance stuff. I'm just going to use bone values for the necessary templates until something better comes up. I made nails more elastic. Good values are annoying to find in general.

I'm going to leave the parent issue open, as robes still seemed overpowered faced with a multi-grizzly assault on a dwarf and I want to run the numbers there later.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2010-04-07 15:46 estokien New Issue
2010-04-07 15:53 Footkerchief Relationship added child of 0000033
2010-04-08 10:11 Footkerchief Relationship added has duplicate 0000802
2010-04-08 11:42 Zas Note Added: 0002108
2010-04-08 11:48 SirPenguin Note Added: 0002110
2010-04-08 11:49 Drone Note Added: 0002111
2010-04-08 12:27 CaptainFailmore Note Added: 0002122
2010-04-08 18:49 Footkerchief Relationship added child of 0000023
2010-04-08 18:50 Footkerchief Relationship deleted child of 0000033
2010-04-08 19:41 Draco18s Note Added: 0002227
2010-04-10 11:07 MysteriousAges Note Added: 0002609
2010-04-14 23:59 Rafal99 Note Added: 0003631
2010-04-18 14:56 derigo Note Added: 0004116
2010-04-28 01:30 derigo Note Added: 0005489
2010-04-28 02:06 derigo Note Added: 0005494
2010-04-28 02:13 derigo Note Edited: 0005494 View Revisions
2010-04-28 02:18 derigo Note Edited: 0005494 View Revisions
2010-04-28 02:20 derigo Tag Attached: quick fix
2010-04-28 02:38 derigo Note Edited: 0005494 View Revisions
2010-04-28 02:40 derigo Note Edited: 0005494 View Revisions
2010-04-28 03:43 derigo Note Edited: 0005494 View Revisions
2010-04-28 03:54 derigo Note Edited: 0005494 View Revisions
2010-04-28 07:18 derigo Issue Monitored: derigo
2010-04-28 09:25 Footkerchief Summary Wolf bite unable to penetrate silk clothing => Wolf bite unable to penetrate silk clothing, due to teeth being only as hard as skin
2010-04-28 09:45 smjjames Tag Attached: PROBABLE QUICK FIX
2010-04-29 16:51 derigo Note Added: 0005713
2010-05-05 21:28 Footkerchief Tag Detached: quick fix
2010-05-20 05:16 Logical2u Relationship added has duplicate 0001987
2010-06-06 05:25 Toady One Note Added: 0007783
2010-06-06 05:25 Toady One Status new => resolved
2010-06-06 05:25 Toady One Fixed in Version => 0.31.06
2010-06-06 05:25 Toady One Resolution open => fixed
2010-06-06 05:25 Toady One Assigned To => Toady One
2010-06-07 21:52 Footkerchief Tag Detached: Probable Quick Fix
2010-06-09 06:45 Toady One Status resolved => closed
2010-06-09 07:56 Footkerchief Status closed => resolved

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