0000325: Elves bring hundreds/thousands of items when trading, due to warthogs lacking TRADE_CAPACITY tag

(0000710)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-03 16:41

Elven caravans brought practically nothing in the past, so bringing an overabundance of stuff is an improvement to me. ;P

(0001094)
king doom (reporter)
2010-04-05 09:20

I haven't bought anything from the elves since the second caravan arrived and they just keep bringing more and more gear each time, and taking longer and longer to set up and to pack away and leave. - they are currently still packing up and the human caravan has just arrived.

(0001109)
derigo (reporter)
2010-04-05 10:17

Not sure if this is related but this happened to me on my first df2010 fort. In the world I had generated, all the other civs had died out except the elves, so they were all-powerful, i guess?

(0001274)
peterix (reporter)
2010-04-05 18:05

Just got a MASSIVE elven caraven - possibly >500000 items and 2500 creatures.

Save is available here: http://dethware.org/awesome-bugelves.tar.gz [^]

(0001277)
SirPenguin (reporter)
2010-04-05 18:11

Might be related to how fortress wealth is being calculated, erroneously taking caverns into account. We've already seen the wealth affecting things such as when we get migrants.

(0001426)
king doom (reporter)
2010-04-06 07:00

I do have an unnamed amphibian man civilisation hidden in the caverns somewhere under my fort according to the civilisations screen.

(0001486)
Rafal99 (reporter)
2010-04-06 09:30
edited on: 2010-04-06 19:21

I got huge elven caravan too.
They came in the next spring, with 2 merchants and 2 warthogs. I don't know if warthogs are even supposed to be trade animal, they have no [TRADE_CAPACITY] tag.

They brought about 100 pages of goods total, 5+ pages of every type of stuff (ropes, cages, buckets etc.)

It was the first elven caravan, so it seems not related to the profit they got.
I might dig an old save if needed.

(0001489)
thvaz (reporter)
2010-04-06 09:33

I'm having this same problem, and to add the creatures bringing the tons of stuff are sometimes, for example, warthogs.

(0001615)
KaelGotRice (reporter)
2010-04-06 17:11

Same, for a joke I decided to break down my depot, the elves hadn't even finished unloading yet and I have innumerable amounts of items.

(0001746)
Wirrit (reporter)
2010-04-07 08:32

Same here. It's actually becoming a bit time-consuming to page down through all the wooden toys and flutes and stuff, down to the animals, food, and cloth that I actually have any chance of buying. I can only imagine how it will get when my fort population rises above 100..

(0001792)
king doom (reporter)
2010-04-07 10:44
edited on: 2010-04-07 14:57

I think this one might just be tied to the amount of stuff you have present when you start a fort - if there's a ton of stuff from underground civilisations then they bring massive amounts, things seema bit more reasonable this time around, i'm fairly certain there are no underground cities.

Edit: scratch that theory, the latest caravan had the usual mass of items. Over fifty caged animals, including tigermen and elephants.

(0002408)
Langdon (reporter)
2010-04-09 13:13

As I mentioned on the parent bug's page, I added [TRADE_CAPACITY:xxxx] to the warthog entry and genned a new world on 0.31.02, and elven caravans now bring the normal amount of goods (no more than three or four animals, one or two bins of cloth, and a few berries).

(0003232)
king doom (reporter)
2010-04-13 04:06

Seems like the problem is definately quantum warthogs then, first couple of caravans in my new fort had horses and normal loads, the latest caravan had a magic pig that could carry a million tons of material.

(0003240)
Draco18s (reporter)
2010-04-13 06:24

@Wirrit: that's why you scroll up. It wraps around.

(0003244)
Zas (reporter)
2010-04-13 06:39

I kinda think it's intended. It's just that elves became more sensitive. You allow them to make profit - next time they bring MUCH more stuff. You deconstruct the depot and take all their goods - next year's caravan would be about 1/5 of the previous. And overall, the trading has become more important part of the fortress' life, and caravans have become bigger. It's a positive change, I think, because there's always something you can't get in your area. Would help to be able to build several depots in the same time though.

(0003245)
king doom (reporter)
2010-04-13 06:51
edited on: 2010-04-13 10:49

I really doubt it's intended, since the other caravans don't brink hundreds of tons more equipment than they did in previous versions, Some people have reported elves bringing so much to trade it crashes the game. It definately causes the game to lock for a few seconds each time a pack animal appears on map or leaves it as the game calculates how much stuff is moving around, even if it isn't a bug it needs a lot of polish.

Removing the Pack animal tag doesn't fix the issue, the elven caravan still brings the animal, but they have nothing on them. I'll try adding the [TRADE_CAPACITY:600] tag, it's been reported to work, backup confirmation wont hurt. Back in a year.

Right, adding the trade capacity tag to warthogs fixes the problem. The elves still bring much more than in previous versions, but it is no longer measured in the thousands of items.

(0003666)
46852 (reporter)
2010-04-15 06:54
edited on: 2010-04-15 06:55

I think it was on the forums that someone had reduced the trade capacities down to around 1/10th of the values in the raws currently, and that had produced good results, as in similar quantities of items as in 40d version. I've modded my raws like this too, will report results when I get a caravan.

On second note, wagons have [TRADE_CAPACITY:15000], it sounds really high to me...

PS. Does anyone have a clue if the trade capacity tag represents something concrete, like pounds or kilograms or something?

(0003673)
Rafal99 (reporter)
2010-04-15 07:32

It represents 'dwarfpounds', ingame weight unit. It is close to kilogram actually.

(0005151)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-04-26 11:10

@King Doom: Its probably a bug that warthogs even have the pack_animal tag at all.

Horses are also missing a trade capacity tag and some of the animals that used to pull wagons don't have the wagon puller tag either.

(0005155)
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-04-26 11:13

smjjames: which animals?

(0005156)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-04-26 11:21

Quietust says here http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=52613.0 [^] that only the muskoxen have the Wagon_Puller tag and I can confirm it myself as I looked at the raws.

(0005162)
hyndis (reporter)
2010-04-26 12:55

I edited my raws so both horses and warthogs have a trade capacity, and now caravans bring a much more reasonable amount of stuff. More traders show up, usually 5-6 traders and 5-6 pack animals, and they all load and unload quickly and efficiently while carrying a sane amount of cargo.

(0005204)
derigo (reporter)
2010-04-26 17:00
edited on: 2010-04-26 17:11

wanted to point out that 1 humped and 2 humped camels are also [PACK_ANIMAL]s without [WAGON_PULLER] but with [TRADE_CAPACITY:3000].

I'm going to try adding that trade capacity tag to the other pack animals and see what happens.

However, if this is the problem, why don't dwarves and humans bring craptons of stuff? Horses also lack the trade capacity tag, and all my caravans from them are coming on horses.

for the record, pack animals:
muskox - no [TRADE_CAPACITY], yes [WAGON_PULLER]
horse - no [TRADE_CAPACITY], no [WAGON_PULLER]
warthog - no [TRADE_CAPACITY], no [WAGON_PULLER]
1 humped camel - yes [TRADE_CAPACITY:3000], no [WAGON_PULLER]
2 humped camel - yes [TRADE_CAPACITY:3000], no [WAGON_PULLER]

wagon - not a pack animal (its a wagon), has trade capacity 15000

(0005336)
hyndis (reporter)
2010-04-27 08:03

Wagon pulling doesn't matter as wagons are not used currently. Thats another bug. The pack animal token without a trade capacity token seems to be the issue.

So long as all pack animals have a trade capacity listed the traders should bring a reasonable amount of stuff.

(0005343)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-04-27 09:06

@Derigo: Maybe because Elves are stupid and want to sell everything they own?

(0005451)
derigo (reporter)
2010-04-27 19:26

@hyndis,
As I asked before, if that's the case, why don't humans and dwarves bring ridiculous amounts of stuff? Horses also lack the trade capacity tag and they come on horses(in my world, anyway).

(0005511)
hyndis (reporter)
2010-04-28 05:58

No idea, but it seems to have resolved the elf problem for me at least.

(0005615)
derigo (reporter)
2010-04-28 18:43
edited on: 2010-04-28 18:44

whoops, forgot mules and donkeys.

mule- no [TRADE_CAPACTIY], no [WAGON_PULLER], yes [PACK_ANIMAL]
donkey- no [TRADE_CAPACTIY], no [WAGON_PULLER], yes [PACK_ANIMAL]

(0006256)
derigo (reporter)
2010-05-06 01:25

Ok, I've run a couple forts using the additional trade capacity tag on all pack animals, and I have to say, it doesn't really fix anything. You still end up with obscene amounts of goods coming in the caravans. And there's still no wagons, ever, even with wagon puller added to all the pack animal creatures.

What it _does_ do is increase the number of pack animals that come(since there's a limit on how much one animal can carry, they just bring more). This alleviates some of the problems people have been experiencing. For instance, with 10+ pack animals instead of 2, it doesn't take them an entire season to pack/unpack. But 10+ pages of rope for starters is still just a tad over the top, imo. Its as if there's no upper limit on how big a caravan a race might send you. So the more profitable you make your trades, the more goods you get in the caravan next year, ad infinitum.

This really goes for all races, not just elves. But it does seem like elves start out at a higher threshold...or something. Maybe the animals in the cages are adding to the carrying capacity?? I don't know.

(0006272)
hyndis (reporter)
2010-05-06 08:11

They still bring a lot of stuff yes, but its brought with multiple traders, so instead of just 2 pack animals trying to load its 10+ pack animals loading, which means loading/unloading goes 5 times as fast.

(0006283)
king doom (reporter)
2010-05-06 09:48

I suspect the fact that elves bring more gear,even with all the changes to reduce the stuff to sane amounts, is a deliberate balance thing, since the other races should start bringing wagons (toady removed them for now if I remember right, they'll be added back when he redoes vehicles) and can carry much more than the elves will be able to.

(0006342)
derigo (reporter)
2010-05-07 02:42

No that's the thing, by the time you're 10 years into a fort its no longer just the elves if you've been a profitable trading partner. ALL the races are bring just obscene amounts of stuff to trade. It just seems like the elves tend to bring more initially. Then again I've played forts where the elves brought almost nothing initially, as well... The answer to that inconsistency may just be luck of the draw, in the world I generated the elves happen to be very wealthy, or very nearby, or something.

(0006356)
hyndis (reporter)
2010-05-07 08:25

They bring a lot of stuff, but by adding in a trade capacity the load is shared amongst many traders and pack animals. This means that the loading/unloading still goes very quickly, just as long as it took back in 40D.

Without the trade capacity fix you'll have something like 1 warthog trying to load an entire caravan worth of goods, which can take over a year to do, causing the traders to go insane/berserk and spewing the items all over your fortress.

(0007862)
Narmio (reporter)
2010-06-06 20:53

Has anyone compared the weight of the wooden items elves bring in 31.x to the weight they used to have in 40d? Is it possible the reason why the elves are so generous has to do with the materials rewrite making a lot of their stuff much lighter? When you add that to the reported wealth-from-underground-features problem and the some-creatures-lack-capacities problem it might give the wooden junk bonanza we have now.

Just a thought. I do like the wood, barrels and sand they bring, though. Quite the boon for resources-poor maps!

(0007977)
Toady One (administrator)
2010-06-09 01:04

The warthogs were the only pack animals I found without a trade capacity, and the common domestic and pack animal tags were there by mistake (copy-paste error, most likely). I also put a non-trade-capacity item number cap and default trade capacities for all creatures, so this should be handled for 0.31.06.

(0008138)
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-06-11 06:53

For anyone who is still experiencing this problem in a save transferred to 0.31.06, see Langdon's workaround at 0002253:0008133.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-04-03 16:13	king doom	New Issue
2010-04-03 16:32	Footkerchief	Category	Adventure Mode -- Trade => Dwarf Mode -- Trade
2010-04-03 16:41	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000710
2010-04-05 09:20	king doom	Note Added: 0001094
2010-04-05 10:17	derigo	Note Added: 0001109
2010-04-05 18:05	peterix	Note Added: 0001274
2010-04-05 18:11	SirPenguin	Note Added: 0001277
2010-04-06 07:00	king doom	Note Added: 0001426
2010-04-06 09:30	Rafal99	Note Added: 0001486
2010-04-06 09:33	thvaz	Note Added: 0001489
2010-04-06 09:51	Rafal99	Issue Monitored: Rafal99
2010-04-06 09:54	Footkerchief	Relationship added	child of 0000433
2010-04-06 17:11	KaelGotRice	Note Added: 0001615
2010-04-06 19:21	Rafal99	Note Edited: 0001486	View Revisions
2010-04-07 08:08	Rafal99	Tag Attached: Elves
2010-04-07 08:08	Rafal99	Tag Attached: trade
2010-04-07 08:08	Rafal99	Tag Attached: caravan
2010-04-07 08:32	Wirrit	Note Added: 0001746
2010-04-07 10:44	king doom	Note Added: 0001792
2010-04-07 14:57	king doom	Note Edited: 0001792	View Revisions
2010-04-09 03:56	Khym Chanur	Issue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2010-04-09 13:13	Langdon	Note Added: 0002408
2010-04-13 04:06	king doom	Note Added: 0003232
2010-04-13 06:24	Draco18s	Note Added: 0003240
2010-04-13 06:39	Zas	Note Added: 0003244
2010-04-13 06:51	king doom	Note Added: 0003245
2010-04-13 07:08	king doom	Note Edited: 0003245	View Revisions
2010-04-13 07:12	king doom	Note Edited: 0003245	View Revisions
2010-04-13 08:06	king doom	Note Edited: 0003245	View Revisions
2010-04-13 10:49	king doom	Note Edited: 0003245	View Revisions
2010-04-15 06:54	46852	Note Added: 0003666
2010-04-15 06:55	46852	Note Edited: 0003666	View Revisions
2010-04-15 07:32	Rafal99	Note Added: 0003673
2010-04-15 08:54	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	parent of 0000433
2010-04-15 08:54	Footkerchief	Relationship added	parent of 0001195
2010-04-25 02:01	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0001493
2010-04-25 02:01	Footkerchief	Issue Monitored: Footkerchief
2010-04-26 11:04	Footkerchief	Summary	Elves bring hundreds/thousands of items when trading. => Elves bring hundreds/thousands of items when trading, due to warthogs lacking TRADE_CAPACITY tag
2010-04-26 11:04	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: PROBABLE QUICK FIX
2010-04-26 11:10	smjjames	Note Added: 0005151
2010-04-26 11:13	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0005155
2010-04-26 11:21	smjjames	Note Added: 0005156
2010-04-26 12:55	hyndis	Note Added: 0005162
2010-04-26 17:00	derigo	Note Added: 0005204
2010-04-26 17:04	derigo	Note Edited: 0005204	View Revisions
2010-04-26 17:11	derigo	Note Edited: 0005204	View Revisions
2010-04-26 23:33	derigo	Issue Monitored: derigo
2010-04-27 08:03	hyndis	Note Added: 0005336
2010-04-27 09:06	smjjames	Note Added: 0005343
2010-04-27 19:26	derigo	Note Added: 0005451
2010-04-28 05:58	hyndis	Note Added: 0005511
2010-04-28 09:48	smjjames	Tag Attached: quick fix
2010-04-28 18:43	derigo	Note Added: 0005615
2010-04-28 18:44	derigo	Note Edited: 0005615	View Revisions
2010-05-05 21:28	Footkerchief	Tag Detached: quick fix
2010-05-06 01:25	derigo	Note Added: 0006256
2010-05-06 08:11	hyndis	Note Added: 0006272
2010-05-06 09:48	king doom	Note Added: 0006283
2010-05-07 02:42	derigo	Note Added: 0006342
2010-05-07 08:25	hyndis	Note Added: 0006356
2010-05-18 21:46	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0001965
2010-06-06 20:53	Narmio	Note Added: 0007862
2010-06-06 21:04	Cel	Issue Monitored: Cel
2010-06-09 01:04	Toady One	Note Added: 0007977
2010-06-09 01:04	Toady One	Status	new => resolved
2010-06-09 01:04	Toady One	Fixed in Version	=> 0.31.06
2010-06-09 01:04	Toady One	Resolution	open => fixed
2010-06-09 01:04	Toady One	Assigned To	=> Toady One
2010-06-09 01:53	Cel	Issue End Monitor: Cel
2010-06-09 06:00	Rafal99	Issue End Monitor: Rafal99
2010-06-09 06:45	Toady One	Status	resolved => closed
2010-06-09 07:56	Footkerchief	Status	closed => resolved
2010-06-09 20:19	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0000664
2010-06-10 21:04	Footkerchief	Tag Detached: Probable Quick Fix
2010-06-11 06:50	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0002253
2010-06-11 06:53	Footkerchief	Additional Information Updated	View Revisions
2010-06-11 06:53	Footkerchief	Additional Information Updated	View Revisions
2010-06-11 06:53	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0008138
2010-06-11 12:06	Khym Chanur	Issue End Monitor: Khym Chanur
2010-07-05 08:09	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0002567
2010-07-05 09:16	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	has duplicate 0002567
2010-07-05 09:16	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	has duplicate 0002253
2010-07-05 09:16	Footkerchief	Issue Monitored: Geocat
2010-10-07 19:28	mythguile	Tag Attached: cloth
2010-10-07 19:28	mythguile	Tag Detached: cloth
2010-11-16 13:38	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0003392
2012-03-05 08:41	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0001864

Notes
(0000710) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-03 16:41	Elven caravans brought practically nothing in the past, so bringing an overabundance of stuff is an improvement to me. ;P

(0001094) king doom (reporter) 2010-04-05 09:20	I haven't bought anything from the elves since the second caravan arrived and they just keep bringing more and more gear each time, and taking longer and longer to set up and to pack away and leave. - they are currently still packing up and the human caravan has just arrived.

(0001109) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-05 10:17	Not sure if this is related but this happened to me on my first df2010 fort. In the world I had generated, all the other civs had died out except the elves, so they were all-powerful, i guess?

(0001274) peterix (reporter) 2010-04-05 18:05	Just got a MASSIVE elven caraven - possibly >500000 items and 2500 creatures. Save is available here: http://dethware.org/awesome-bugelves.tar.gz [^]

(0001277) SirPenguin (reporter) 2010-04-05 18:11	Might be related to how fortress wealth is being calculated, erroneously taking caverns into account. We've already seen the wealth affecting things such as when we get migrants.

(0001426) king doom (reporter) 2010-04-06 07:00	I do have an unnamed amphibian man civilisation hidden in the caverns somewhere under my fort according to the civilisations screen.

(0001486) Rafal99 (reporter) 2010-04-06 09:30 edited on: 2010-04-06 19:21	I got huge elven caravan too. They came in the next spring, with 2 merchants and 2 warthogs. I don't know if warthogs are even supposed to be trade animal, they have no [TRADE_CAPACITY] tag. They brought about 100 pages of goods total, 5+ pages of every type of stuff (ropes, cages, buckets etc.) It was the first elven caravan, so it seems not related to the profit they got. I might dig an old save if needed.

(0001489) thvaz (reporter) 2010-04-06 09:33	I'm having this same problem, and to add the creatures bringing the tons of stuff are sometimes, for example, warthogs.

(0001615) KaelGotRice (reporter) 2010-04-06 17:11	Same, for a joke I decided to break down my depot, the elves hadn't even finished unloading yet and I have innumerable amounts of items.

(0001746) Wirrit (reporter) 2010-04-07 08:32	Same here. It's actually becoming a bit time-consuming to page down through all the wooden toys and flutes and stuff, down to the animals, food, and cloth that I actually have any chance of buying. I can only imagine how it will get when my fort population rises above 100..

(0001792) king doom (reporter) 2010-04-07 10:44 edited on: 2010-04-07 14:57	I think this one might just be tied to the amount of stuff you have present when you start a fort - if there's a ton of stuff from underground civilisations then they bring massive amounts, things seema bit more reasonable this time around, i'm fairly certain there are no underground cities. Edit: scratch that theory, the latest caravan had the usual mass of items. Over fifty caged animals, including tigermen and elephants.

(0002408) Langdon (reporter) 2010-04-09 13:13	As I mentioned on the parent bug's page, I added [TRADE_CAPACITY:xxxx] to the warthog entry and genned a new world on 0.31.02, and elven caravans now bring the normal amount of goods (no more than three or four animals, one or two bins of cloth, and a few berries).

(0003232) king doom (reporter) 2010-04-13 04:06	Seems like the problem is definately quantum warthogs then, first couple of caravans in my new fort had horses and normal loads, the latest caravan had a magic pig that could carry a million tons of material.

(0003240) Draco18s (reporter) 2010-04-13 06:24	@Wirrit: that's why you scroll up. It wraps around.

(0003244) Zas (reporter) 2010-04-13 06:39	I kinda think it's intended. It's just that elves became more sensitive. You allow them to make profit - next time they bring MUCH more stuff. You deconstruct the depot and take all their goods - next year's caravan would be about 1/5 of the previous. And overall, the trading has become more important part of the fortress' life, and caravans have become bigger. It's a positive change, I think, because there's always something you can't get in your area. Would help to be able to build several depots in the same time though.

(0003245) king doom (reporter) 2010-04-13 06:51 edited on: 2010-04-13 10:49	I really doubt it's intended, since the other caravans don't brink hundreds of tons more equipment than they did in previous versions, Some people have reported elves bringing so much to trade it crashes the game. It definately causes the game to lock for a few seconds each time a pack animal appears on map or leaves it as the game calculates how much stuff is moving around, even if it isn't a bug it needs a lot of polish. Removing the Pack animal tag doesn't fix the issue, the elven caravan still brings the animal, but they have nothing on them. I'll try adding the [TRADE_CAPACITY:600] tag, it's been reported to work, backup confirmation wont hurt. Back in a year. Right, adding the trade capacity tag to warthogs fixes the problem. The elves still bring much more than in previous versions, but it is no longer measured in the thousands of items.

(0003666) 46852 (reporter) 2010-04-15 06:54 edited on: 2010-04-15 06:55	I think it was on the forums that someone had reduced the trade capacities down to around 1/10th of the values in the raws currently, and that had produced good results, as in similar quantities of items as in 40d version. I've modded my raws like this too, will report results when I get a caravan. On second note, wagons have [TRADE_CAPACITY:15000], it sounds really high to me... PS. Does anyone have a clue if the trade capacity tag represents something concrete, like pounds or kilograms or something?

(0003673) Rafal99 (reporter) 2010-04-15 07:32	It represents 'dwarfpounds', ingame weight unit. It is close to kilogram actually.

(0005151) smjjames (reporter) 2010-04-26 11:10	@King Doom: Its probably a bug that warthogs even have the pack_animal tag at all. Horses are also missing a trade capacity tag and some of the animals that used to pull wagons don't have the wagon puller tag either.

(0005155) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-04-26 11:13	smjjames: which animals?

(0005156) smjjames (reporter) 2010-04-26 11:21	Quietust says here http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=52613.0 [^] that only the muskoxen have the Wagon_Puller tag and I can confirm it myself as I looked at the raws.

(0005162) hyndis (reporter) 2010-04-26 12:55	I edited my raws so both horses and warthogs have a trade capacity, and now caravans bring a much more reasonable amount of stuff. More traders show up, usually 5-6 traders and 5-6 pack animals, and they all load and unload quickly and efficiently while carrying a sane amount of cargo.

(0005204) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-26 17:00 edited on: 2010-04-26 17:11	wanted to point out that 1 humped and 2 humped camels are also [PACK_ANIMAL]s without [WAGON_PULLER] but with [TRADE_CAPACITY:3000]. I'm going to try adding that trade capacity tag to the other pack animals and see what happens. However, if this is the problem, why don't dwarves and humans bring craptons of stuff? Horses also lack the trade capacity tag, and all my caravans from them are coming on horses. for the record, pack animals: muskox - no [TRADE_CAPACITY], yes [WAGON_PULLER] horse - no [TRADE_CAPACITY], no [WAGON_PULLER] warthog - no [TRADE_CAPACITY], no [WAGON_PULLER] 1 humped camel - yes [TRADE_CAPACITY:3000], no [WAGON_PULLER] 2 humped camel - yes [TRADE_CAPACITY:3000], no [WAGON_PULLER] wagon - not a pack animal (its a wagon), has trade capacity 15000

(0005336) hyndis (reporter) 2010-04-27 08:03	Wagon pulling doesn't matter as wagons are not used currently. Thats another bug. The pack animal token without a trade capacity token seems to be the issue. So long as all pack animals have a trade capacity listed the traders should bring a reasonable amount of stuff.

(0005343) smjjames (reporter) 2010-04-27 09:06	@Derigo: Maybe because Elves are stupid and want to sell everything they own?

(0005451) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-27 19:26	@hyndis, As I asked before, if that's the case, why don't humans and dwarves bring ridiculous amounts of stuff? Horses also lack the trade capacity tag and they come on horses(in my world, anyway).

(0005511) hyndis (reporter) 2010-04-28 05:58	No idea, but it seems to have resolved the elf problem for me at least.

(0005615) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-28 18:43 edited on: 2010-04-28 18:44	whoops, forgot mules and donkeys. mule- no [TRADE_CAPACTIY], no [WAGON_PULLER], yes [PACK_ANIMAL] donkey- no [TRADE_CAPACTIY], no [WAGON_PULLER], yes [PACK_ANIMAL]

(0006256) derigo (reporter) 2010-05-06 01:25	Ok, I've run a couple forts using the additional trade capacity tag on all pack animals, and I have to say, it doesn't really fix anything. You still end up with obscene amounts of goods coming in the caravans. And there's still no wagons, ever, even with wagon puller added to all the pack animal creatures. What it _does_ do is increase the number of pack animals that come(since there's a limit on how much one animal can carry, they just bring more). This alleviates some of the problems people have been experiencing. For instance, with 10+ pack animals instead of 2, it doesn't take them an entire season to pack/unpack. But 10+ pages of rope for starters is still just a tad over the top, imo. Its as if there's no upper limit on how big a caravan a race might send you. So the more profitable you make your trades, the more goods you get in the caravan next year, ad infinitum. This really goes for all races, not just elves. But it does seem like elves start out at a higher threshold...or something. Maybe the animals in the cages are adding to the carrying capacity?? I don't know.

(0006272) hyndis (reporter) 2010-05-06 08:11	They still bring a lot of stuff yes, but its brought with multiple traders, so instead of just 2 pack animals trying to load its 10+ pack animals loading, which means loading/unloading goes 5 times as fast.

(0006283) king doom (reporter) 2010-05-06 09:48	I suspect the fact that elves bring more gear,even with all the changes to reduce the stuff to sane amounts, is a deliberate balance thing, since the other races should start bringing wagons (toady removed them for now if I remember right, they'll be added back when he redoes vehicles) and can carry much more than the elves will be able to.

(0006342) derigo (reporter) 2010-05-07 02:42	No that's the thing, by the time you're 10 years into a fort its no longer just the elves if you've been a profitable trading partner. ALL the races are bring just obscene amounts of stuff to trade. It just seems like the elves tend to bring more initially. Then again I've played forts where the elves brought almost nothing initially, as well... The answer to that inconsistency may just be luck of the draw, in the world I generated the elves happen to be very wealthy, or very nearby, or something.

(0006356) hyndis (reporter) 2010-05-07 08:25	They bring a lot of stuff, but by adding in a trade capacity the load is shared amongst many traders and pack animals. This means that the loading/unloading still goes very quickly, just as long as it took back in 40D. Without the trade capacity fix you'll have something like 1 warthog trying to load an entire caravan worth of goods, which can take over a year to do, causing the traders to go insane/berserk and spewing the items all over your fortress.

(0007862) Narmio (reporter) 2010-06-06 20:53	Has anyone compared the weight of the wooden items elves bring in 31.x to the weight they used to have in 40d? Is it possible the reason why the elves are so generous has to do with the materials rewrite making a lot of their stuff much lighter? When you add that to the reported wealth-from-underground-features problem and the some-creatures-lack-capacities problem it might give the wooden junk bonanza we have now. Just a thought. I do like the wood, barrels and sand they bring, though. Quite the boon for resources-poor maps!

(0007977) Toady One (administrator) 2010-06-09 01:04	The warthogs were the only pack animals I found without a trade capacity, and the common domestic and pack animal tags were there by mistake (copy-paste error, most likely). I also put a non-trade-capacity item number cap and default trade capacities for all creatures, so this should be handled for 0.31.06.

(0008138) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-06-11 06:53	For anyone who is still experiencing this problem in a save transferred to 0.31.06, see Langdon's workaround at 0002253:0008133.