0004005: Game no longer provides seeds either on embark or caravan

(0015208)
Kogut (reporter)
2011-02-17 13:56

this prevents all means of making booze and food

Not true - try d-p.

(0015209)
dravus (reporter)
2011-02-17 14:06

that's not dwarven booze....does very little for happiness

fact is there is no mushrooms from trade or embark.....this shouldn't be happening

(0015215)
Logical2u (manager)
2011-02-17 15:50

Is this because the dwarven civ in question has no access to caverns? Is it reproducible across all of your embarks?

(0015231)
dravus (reporter)
2011-02-18 04:56

I did this across 3 different worlds.....it's always happening

and across 2 different game installs

(0015232)
Logical2u (manager)
2011-02-18 05:24

Are you testing every accessible dwarven civilization in those embarks?

(0015233)
Inglonias (reporter)
2011-02-18 06:04

This sounds very similar to 0003958. Is there a connection?

I note that in 0003958 some civilizations have anvils, and some don't. Combined with this, it could severely cripple fortresses!

(0015234)
dravus (reporter)
2011-02-18 06:16

I limit the civs in my games to give myself more viable sites

here's the problem....31.18....you could start on year one....no civs present.....and you've still have access to plants and seeds on embark

now they don't even appear as an option or appear in trade

as I said....I did this over 2 different installs with the excat same result

(0015236)
Logical2u (manager)
2011-02-18 06:37
edited on: 2011-02-18 06:37

I think if you try to start a fortress in a 31.18 world with NO civs it would automatically populate a civ with "dwarven items", so that you could still play the game.

Now if you're doing a zero civ world it's probably checking what sort of resources that the generated civ would actually have access to (probably part of the caravan arc), and since it's spawning it out of thin air it's probably not giving them cavern access thus no seeds.

Could you please try a world where you have at least one dwarven civ? Although you would have fewer viable sites, I know, you should get seed access as expected. This would be very valuable for this bug report.

(0015254)
dravus (reporter)
2011-02-18 14:37
edited on: 2011-03-06 15:30

you weren't listening to what I said

I started "31.18" worlds before civs appeared

I didn't start 31.19 worlds that way....I started with 25-40 civs and let the word gen run till year 250

that is ample time for civs to locate seeds

I'm pasting my world gen so you can understand my layout

http://pastebin.com/HbXwsm6V [^]

(0015357)
dravus (reporter)
2011-02-21 06:50

just created another world.....set my civs to 50 (which gave 7 dwarven civs) trying embarking under each of them....no seeds, no drinks

this has been happening on all my games since installing 31.19 and I consider it broken

because of how caverns affect my game (making it impossible to manually save) I need the inital supplies to get started.....with this bug I can't and it's extremely hard to get anything done

(0015358)
greycat (reporter)
2011-02-21 08:02

I have not seen this problem. Can you include all the parameters necessary to duplicate one of your broken world gens? Including the RNG seeds.

(0015361)
dravus (reporter)
2011-02-21 08:57
edited on: 2011-02-21 11:44

the world gen above is the one I typically use

also....clarify RNG seeds

I just thought.........would overwriting an install of the game from 31.18 to 31.19 cause this?

(0015363)
dravus (reporter)
2011-02-21 11:44

I just used Create world now and it's given seeds and drinks and everything I am missing on my custom worlds

what is wrong with my custom world that is preventing civs locating seeds?

(0015402)
greycat (reporter)
2011-02-22 15:29

Overwriting an install directory with a newer version has been known to cause many problems. You should extract each version of DF into its own directory. Beyond that, sorry, I don't know much about custom world gen params.

(0015439)
Inglonias (reporter)
2011-02-24 06:24

This problem is random. I believe its a result of the fact that civs can "starve" during world gen, but "not be affected" according to the release notes.

(0015441)
dravus (reporter)
2011-02-24 07:50
edited on: 2011-02-24 07:50

@greycat I thought of that and my lastest report were based on a completely new install into a new folder......no overwriting and with the same results

(0015558)
dravus (reporter)
2011-02-27 20:39

I believe I may of found the root cause of the issue myself

I mentioned this in a note further up
    [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:10]
    [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:5]
    [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:5]
    [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:5]
    [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:5]

I reverted these values back to the settings used in the core world gen parameters and everything began working again as normal

granted......the issue of no metals being present in 31.19 is still gamebreaking but that's a different trouble ticket

(as a note......this excat same issue was occuring in 31.18 using the above settings....reverting fixed it)

(0015862)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2011-03-06 15:27

Got it here too... Investigating.

(0015863)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2011-03-06 15:32
edited on: 2011-03-06 21:04

(0.31.20)
Appears to be a civ failure, I aborted back out and re-embarked at the same exact site, and changed to the other civ (the one at war I initially rejected) and have seeds again. I can collect up a save for you to look at if desired.

Also can't speak for what dravus is seeing, but for me it's not just seeds. Plants, beer, meat, basically no food at all available from the civ in question.

(0015864)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2011-03-06 15:43

@Dravus
Changing the cavern levels doesn't sound like something that would affect civ survival. What OTHER settings are you changing in your world gen parameters?

(0015998)
Thundercraft (reporter)
2011-03-09 08:09

This issue sounds like it is related to a recent discussion on the 0.31.21 release thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=79054.msg2058532#msg2058532 [^]

As AdeleneDawner mentions, the .19 changelog says:
"Animals and plants occur with more or less contiguous ranges now, respecting biome."

So, now crop and tree access is not just random, but very limited. And I suspect this could be a contributing factor to the mass starvation seen during world gen and civs not collecting food.

I'm hoping that once the Caravan Arc is finished, we can buy whatever spawn or seeds are needed. But until then...

However, even if that happens, it won't fix the civs starving to death or the limited access to trees (because trees do not have seeds/spawn).

(0021827)
Kogut (reporter)
2012-03-28 06:15

"0004005: Game no longer provides seeds either on embark or caravan" is misleading, title should be "0004005: Civilisation may be without access to seeds"

(0021834)
Footkerchief (manager)
2012-03-28 08:00

I think this is actually a straight duplicate.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2011-02-17 13:55	dravus	New Issue
2011-02-17 13:56	Kogut	Note Added: 0015208
2011-02-17 14:06	dravus	Note Added: 0015209
2011-02-17 14:12	Hieronymous Alloy	Issue Monitored: Hieronymous Alloy
2011-02-17 15:50	Logical2u	Note Added: 0015215
2011-02-17 20:34	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0001311
2011-02-18 04:56	dravus	Note Added: 0015231
2011-02-18 05:24	Logical2u	Note Added: 0015232
2011-02-18 06:04	Inglonias	Issue Monitored: Inglonias
2011-02-18 06:04	Inglonias	Note Added: 0015233
2011-02-18 06:16	dravus	Note Added: 0015234
2011-02-18 06:37	Logical2u	Note Added: 0015236
2011-02-18 06:37	Logical2u	Note Edited: 0015236	View Revisions
2011-02-18 08:42	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0003958
2011-02-18 14:37	dravus	Note Added: 0015254
2011-02-18 14:46	dravus	Note Edited: 0015254	View Revisions
2011-02-18 14:46	dravus	Note Edited: 0015254	View Revisions
2011-02-21 06:50	dravus	Note Added: 0015357
2011-02-21 08:02	greycat	Note Added: 0015358
2011-02-21 08:57	dravus	Note Added: 0015361
2011-02-21 08:57	dravus	Note Edited: 0015361	View Revisions
2011-02-21 09:03	dravus	Note Edited: 0015361	View Revisions
2011-02-21 11:32	dravus	Note Edited: 0015361	View Revisions
2011-02-21 11:44	dravus	Note Edited: 0015361	View Revisions
2011-02-21 11:44	dravus	Note Added: 0015363
2011-02-22 14:48	Khym Chanur	Issue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2011-02-22 15:29	greycat	Note Added: 0015402
2011-02-24 06:24	Inglonias	Note Added: 0015439
2011-02-24 07:50	dravus	Note Added: 0015441
2011-02-24 07:50	dravus	Note Edited: 0015441	View Revisions
2011-02-27 20:39	dravus	Note Added: 0015558
2011-03-06 15:27	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0015862
2011-03-06 15:30	Footkerchief	Note Edited: 0015254	View Revisions
2011-03-06 15:32	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0015863
2011-03-06 15:43	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0015864
2011-03-06 15:46	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0015863	View Revisions
2011-03-06 19:32	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0003844
2011-03-06 21:04	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0015863	View Revisions
2011-03-09 08:09	Thundercraft	Note Added: 0015998
2011-03-09 18:53	DoctorZuber	Issue Monitored: DoctorZuber
2012-01-19 10:23	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0001127
2012-01-19 10:23	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	related to 0001311
2012-02-23 19:00	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	related to 0003958
2012-03-28 06:15	Kogut	Note Added: 0021827
2012-03-28 08:00	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0021834
2012-03-28 08:00	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	duplicate of 0001127
2012-03-28 08:00	Footkerchief	Status	new => resolved
2012-03-28 08:00	Footkerchief	Resolution	open => duplicate
2012-03-28 08:00	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Footkerchief

Notes
(0015208) Kogut (reporter) 2011-02-17 13:56	this prevents all means of making booze and food Not true - try d-p.

(0015209) dravus (reporter) 2011-02-17 14:06	that's not dwarven booze....does very little for happiness fact is there is no mushrooms from trade or embark.....this shouldn't be happening

(0015215) Logical2u (manager) 2011-02-17 15:50	Is this because the dwarven civ in question has no access to caverns? Is it reproducible across all of your embarks?

(0015231) dravus (reporter) 2011-02-18 04:56	I did this across 3 different worlds.....it's always happening and across 2 different game installs

(0015232) Logical2u (manager) 2011-02-18 05:24	Are you testing every accessible dwarven civilization in those embarks?

(0015233) Inglonias (reporter) 2011-02-18 06:04	This sounds very similar to 0003958. Is there a connection? I note that in 0003958 some civilizations have anvils, and some don't. Combined with this, it could severely cripple fortresses!

(0015234) dravus (reporter) 2011-02-18 06:16	I limit the civs in my games to give myself more viable sites here's the problem....31.18....you could start on year one....no civs present.....and you've still have access to plants and seeds on embark now they don't even appear as an option or appear in trade as I said....I did this over 2 different installs with the excat same result

(0015236) Logical2u (manager) 2011-02-18 06:37 edited on: 2011-02-18 06:37	I think if you try to start a fortress in a 31.18 world with NO civs it would automatically populate a civ with "dwarven items", so that you could still play the game. Now if you're doing a zero civ world it's probably checking what sort of resources that the generated civ would actually have access to (probably part of the caravan arc), and since it's spawning it out of thin air it's probably not giving them cavern access thus no seeds. Could you please try a world where you have at least one dwarven civ? Although you would have fewer viable sites, I know, you should get seed access as expected. This would be very valuable for this bug report.

(0015254) dravus (reporter) 2011-02-18 14:37 edited on: 2011-03-06 15:30	you weren't listening to what I said I started "31.18" worlds before civs appeared I didn't start 31.19 worlds that way....I started with 25-40 civs and let the word gen run till year 250 that is ample time for civs to locate seeds I'm pasting my world gen so you can understand my layout http://pastebin.com/HbXwsm6V [^]

(0015357) dravus (reporter) 2011-02-21 06:50	just created another world.....set my civs to 50 (which gave 7 dwarven civs) trying embarking under each of them....no seeds, no drinks this has been happening on all my games since installing 31.19 and I consider it broken because of how caverns affect my game (making it impossible to manually save) I need the inital supplies to get started.....with this bug I can't and it's extremely hard to get anything done

(0015358) greycat (reporter) 2011-02-21 08:02	I have not seen this problem. Can you include all the parameters necessary to duplicate one of your broken world gens? Including the RNG seeds.

(0015361) dravus (reporter) 2011-02-21 08:57 edited on: 2011-02-21 11:44	the world gen above is the one I typically use also....clarify RNG seeds I just thought.........would overwriting an install of the game from 31.18 to 31.19 cause this?

(0015363) dravus (reporter) 2011-02-21 11:44	I just used Create world now and it's given seeds and drinks and everything I am missing on my custom worlds what is wrong with my custom world that is preventing civs locating seeds?

(0015402) greycat (reporter) 2011-02-22 15:29	Overwriting an install directory with a newer version has been known to cause many problems. You should extract each version of DF into its own directory. Beyond that, sorry, I don't know much about custom world gen params.

(0015439) Inglonias (reporter) 2011-02-24 06:24	This problem is random. I believe its a result of the fact that civs can "starve" during world gen, but "not be affected" according to the release notes.

(0015441) dravus (reporter) 2011-02-24 07:50 edited on: 2011-02-24 07:50	@greycat I thought of that and my lastest report were based on a completely new install into a new folder......no overwriting and with the same results

(0015558) dravus (reporter) 2011-02-27 20:39	I believe I may of found the root cause of the issue myself I mentioned this in a note further up [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:10] [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:5] [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:5] [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:5] [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:5] I reverted these values back to the settings used in the core world gen parameters and everything began working again as normal granted......the issue of no metals being present in 31.19 is still gamebreaking but that's a different trouble ticket (as a note......this excat same issue was occuring in 31.18 using the above settings....reverting fixed it)

(0015862) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2011-03-06 15:27	Got it here too... Investigating.

(0015863) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2011-03-06 15:32 edited on: 2011-03-06 21:04	(0.31.20) Appears to be a civ failure, I aborted back out and re-embarked at the same exact site, and changed to the other civ (the one at war I initially rejected) and have seeds again. I can collect up a save for you to look at if desired. Also can't speak for what dravus is seeing, but for me it's not just seeds. Plants, beer, meat, basically no food at all available from the civ in question.

(0015864) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2011-03-06 15:43	@Dravus Changing the cavern levels doesn't sound like something that would affect civ survival. What OTHER settings are you changing in your world gen parameters?

(0015998) Thundercraft (reporter) 2011-03-09 08:09	This issue sounds like it is related to a recent discussion on the 0.31.21 release thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=79054.msg2058532#msg2058532 [^] As AdeleneDawner mentions, the .19 changelog says: "Animals and plants occur with more or less contiguous ranges now, respecting biome." So, now crop and tree access is not just random, but very limited. And I suspect this could be a contributing factor to the mass starvation seen during world gen and civs not collecting food. I'm hoping that once the Caravan Arc is finished, we can buy whatever spawn or seeds are needed. But until then... However, even if that happens, it won't fix the civs starving to death or the limited access to trees (because trees do not have seeds/spawn).

(0021827) Kogut (reporter) 2012-03-28 06:15	"0004005: Game no longer provides seeds either on embark or caravan" is misleading, title should be "0004005: Civilisation may be without access to seeds"

(0021834) Footkerchief (manager) 2012-03-28 08:00	I think this is actually a straight duplicate.