0005158: Dwarves try to cross the edge of waterfalls because water is shallower there, get swept over

(0019738)
Footkerchief (manager)
2012-02-15 21:14

Reminder sent to: Rinick

Are you sure you're not getting swept into the waterfall by the river's strong current?

(0019761)
Rinick (reporter)
2012-02-16 02:10
edited on: 2012-02-16 07:11

saved game: (use Ironhand Graphics 0.61 temp version)
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=5527 [^]
It's a saved game BEFORE the hunter walked into the waterfall.

I figured out why it happened.
The upper side of a waterfall won't have very deep water (usually depth 2 - 3)
And all drawfs think it's a walkable path.

++++++++
77777772
77777773
77777773
++++++++

(0019763)
Sludge Man (reporter)
2012-02-16 03:33

Yep, I lost an entire embark to this earlier today. Dwarves would attempt to cross the top of the waterfall where the depth was lower and get swept to their deaths.

(0019789)
Footkerchief (manager)
2012-02-16 07:13

Thanks Rinick, that clears things up.

(0020181)
shinziril (reporter)
2012-02-19 16:00

This applies to Adventurer Mode as well - attempt to cross a river near a waterfall, and watch as your companions all head sideways along the river to the "walkable path" and get themselves killed.

(0020295)
kento (reporter)
2012-02-20 16:32

I've forbidden the end of the waterfall, and built bridges so that there were viable alternatives, but I could still get rid of my enemies by this pathfinding bug. That kept my dwarves from walking in. However, when I had my first trade caravan visit, after the liaison worked out a trade agreement with me, he decided that fording the river was the way to go. So simply forbidding it is not a good enough work-around.

(0020322)
thesocialshift (reporter)
2012-02-20 20:57

Same here with every embarked dwarf eventually drowning by taking a dive off the waterfall. I would guess that the addition of ramps to rivers in this release made the dwarves "think" this is a valid pathfinding option despite restrictions, bridges, etc. especially with the low water close to the falls.

(0021228)
Edrin (reporter)
2012-03-07 13:06

Until this is fixed, you can avoid ordering anything on the other shore before building a floor or over the edge, (carefully, or you'll kill your mason), but still, I tend to lose my cats to this before I could build it…

(0021251)
kento (reporter)
2012-03-07 22:54

A wall on one side up until it reaches 7 is probably better, when it's removed it won't drop the materials you made it with into the river, and you're less likely to kill dwarves.

(0021265)
MrAnderson (reporter)
2012-03-08 09:19

especially bad if you want to build a north-south bridge (you on the north), dwarves want to build the southest floor from the south, crossing the waterfall. not even restricting helps, only a wall
++++++YOU++++++++++++
.247777777777777+7777
.236777777777777+7777
.135777777777777X7777
+++++++++++++++++++++
X is the missing part

(0021269)
tatterdemalian (reporter)
2012-03-08 12:25

I don't know if this problem can be fixed. The best solution would be to have dwarves and companions treat flowing water as being more dangerous than deep water, but flow is an on/off tile property instead of a velocity, so making them avoid flowing water would make all natural rivers uncrossable, with or without waterfalls. The calculations to either treat flow as a velocity with magnitude would kill the framerate, but so might NPC attempts to detect the difference between a shallow river and a waterfall.

(0021311)
tshakah (reporter)
2012-03-09 10:01

I've fixed it in my game for now my using DF Hack's deramp on all the ramps along the water (a lake in my case).

Picture for lolz: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24097132/Untitled-2.jpg [^]

(0021313)
tshakah (reporter)
2012-03-09 11:52

Actually, that didn't work. Despite my depot saying that it is accessible, I just got the error message that the wagons had to bypass my site. :(

(0021846)
kento (reporter)
2012-03-28 17:39

Depot access tells you what tiles have access to the depot. You need to make sure an edge tile is green on the depot access screen.

Might the problem said to be that water levels lower before waterfalls? I don't think that happens with real waterfalls.

(0022432)
Pattonius (reporter)
2012-05-05 00:44

I've encountered this bug as well. An immigrant potash maker and one of my two legendary miner/engravers went over the waterfall for reasons I couldn't figure out. I didn't have anything on the other side of the river they might be going to and the miner was tasked with smoothing my dining room at that time. I am uncertain as to why she was suddenly outside the fortress near the river. I got a "cancels drink: dangerous terrain" message for the potash maker. Also strange, as I had booze in my drink stockpile and he wasn't injured or sick.

I built a bridge over the edge of the waterfall and haven't had a repeat occurrence, but still unfortunate to lose my miner for no reason.

(0022434)
Khym Chanur (reporter)
2012-05-05 06:50

If the game removed the ramps into the river for the few tiles before the waterfall, that should fix the problem.

(0022723)
Kumquat (reporter)
2012-05-25 10:09

Another side effect caused by this (?) bug: large fish (such as carp) apparently drown at the edge of the map in the 1/7 water. This only happens on the downstream edge, naturally.

I don't know if this happens at waterfalls, too...

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2012-02-15 21:09	Rinick	New Issue
2012-02-15 21:14	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0019738
2012-02-15 21:31	Rinick	Note Added: 0019740
2012-02-15 21:38	Rinick	Note Added: 0019741
2012-02-16 02:10	Rinick	Note Added: 0019761
2012-02-16 02:12	Rinick	Note Deleted: 0019741
2012-02-16 02:16	Rinick	Note Edited: 0019761	View Revisions
2012-02-16 03:33	Sludge Man	Note Added: 0019763
2012-02-16 03:33	Sludge Man	Issue Monitored: Sludge Man
2012-02-16 03:33	Sludge Man	Issue End Monitor: Sludge Man
2012-02-16 03:33	Sludge Man	Issue Monitored: Sludge Man
2012-02-16 06:49	Footkerchief	Summary	Hunter step into waterfall and drowned => Dwarves try to cross the edge of waterfalls because water is shallower there, get swept over
2012-02-16 07:07	Rinick	Tag Attached: 0.34.01
2012-02-16 07:07	Rinick	Tag Attached: AI
2012-02-16 07:07	Rinick	Tag Attached: waterfall
2012-02-16 07:11	Rinick	Note Deleted: 0019740
2012-02-16 07:11	Rinick	Note Edited: 0019761	View Revisions
2012-02-16 07:13	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0019789
2012-02-16 07:17	Rinick	Tag Detached: 0.34.01
2012-02-19 08:05	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0005294
2012-02-19 16:00	shinziril	Note Added: 0020181
2012-02-20 16:32	kento	Note Added: 0020295
2012-02-20 20:57	thesocialshift	Note Added: 0020322
2012-02-21 20:23	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0005383
2012-02-23 09:10	kento	Issue Monitored: kento
2012-03-07 13:06	Edrin	Note Added: 0021228
2012-03-07 22:54	kento	Note Added: 0021251
2012-03-08 09:19	MrAnderson	Note Added: 0021265
2012-03-08 11:00	MrAnderson	Issue Monitored: MrAnderson
2012-03-08 12:25	tatterdemalian	Note Added: 0021269
2012-03-09 09:26	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0005591
2012-03-09 10:01	tshakah	Note Added: 0021311
2012-03-09 11:52	tshakah	Note Added: 0021313
2012-03-28 07:56	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0005316
2012-03-28 17:39	kento	Note Added: 0021846
2012-03-29 07:34	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0001878
2012-03-30 02:12	zwei	Issue Monitored: zwei
2012-05-05 00:44	Pattonius	Note Added: 0022432
2012-05-05 06:50	Khym Chanur	Note Added: 0022434
2012-05-05 06:50	Khym Chanur	Issue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2012-05-14 03:24	Knight Otu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0005875
2012-05-16 07:17	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0005897
2012-05-25 10:09	Kumquat	Note Added: 0022723
2012-05-29 21:11	Footkerchief	Status	new => resolved
2012-05-29 21:11	Footkerchief	Fixed in Version	=> Next Version
2012-05-29 21:11	Footkerchief	Resolution	open => fixed
2012-05-29 21:11	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Toady One
2012-05-30 23:27	zwei	Issue End Monitor: zwei
2012-06-19 06:27	MrAnderson	Issue End Monitor: MrAnderson
2014-07-11 13:46	Dwarfu	Relationship added	related to 0007082

Notes
(0019738) Footkerchief (manager) 2012-02-15 21:14	Reminder sent to: Rinick Are you sure you're not getting swept into the waterfall by the river's strong current?

(0019761) Rinick (reporter) 2012-02-16 02:10 edited on: 2012-02-16 07:11	saved game: (use Ironhand Graphics 0.61 temp version) http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=5527 [^] It's a saved game BEFORE the hunter walked into the waterfall. I figured out why it happened. The upper side of a waterfall won't have very deep water (usually depth 2 - 3) And all drawfs think it's a walkable path. ++++++++ 77777772 77777773 77777773 ++++++++

(0019763) Sludge Man (reporter) 2012-02-16 03:33	Yep, I lost an entire embark to this earlier today. Dwarves would attempt to cross the top of the waterfall where the depth was lower and get swept to their deaths.

(0019789) Footkerchief (manager) 2012-02-16 07:13	Thanks Rinick, that clears things up.

(0020181) shinziril (reporter) 2012-02-19 16:00	This applies to Adventurer Mode as well - attempt to cross a river near a waterfall, and watch as your companions all head sideways along the river to the "walkable path" and get themselves killed.

(0020295) kento (reporter) 2012-02-20 16:32	I've forbidden the end of the waterfall, and built bridges so that there were viable alternatives, but I could still get rid of my enemies by this pathfinding bug. That kept my dwarves from walking in. However, when I had my first trade caravan visit, after the liaison worked out a trade agreement with me, he decided that fording the river was the way to go. So simply forbidding it is not a good enough work-around.

(0020322) thesocialshift (reporter) 2012-02-20 20:57	Same here with every embarked dwarf eventually drowning by taking a dive off the waterfall. I would guess that the addition of ramps to rivers in this release made the dwarves "think" this is a valid pathfinding option despite restrictions, bridges, etc. especially with the low water close to the falls.

(0021228) Edrin (reporter) 2012-03-07 13:06	Until this is fixed, you can avoid ordering anything on the other shore before building a floor or over the edge, (carefully, or you'll kill your mason), but still, I tend to lose my cats to this before I could build it…

(0021251) kento (reporter) 2012-03-07 22:54	A wall on one side up until it reaches 7 is probably better, when it's removed it won't drop the materials you made it with into the river, and you're less likely to kill dwarves.

(0021265) MrAnderson (reporter) 2012-03-08 09:19	especially bad if you want to build a north-south bridge (you on the north), dwarves want to build the southest floor from the south, crossing the waterfall. not even restricting helps, only a wall ++++++YOU++++++++++++ .247777777777777+7777 .236777777777777+7777 .135777777777777X7777 +++++++++++++++++++++ X is the missing part

(0021269) tatterdemalian (reporter) 2012-03-08 12:25	I don't know if this problem can be fixed. The best solution would be to have dwarves and companions treat flowing water as being more dangerous than deep water, but flow is an on/off tile property instead of a velocity, so making them avoid flowing water would make all natural rivers uncrossable, with or without waterfalls. The calculations to either treat flow as a velocity with magnitude would kill the framerate, but so might NPC attempts to detect the difference between a shallow river and a waterfall.

(0021311) tshakah (reporter) 2012-03-09 10:01	I've fixed it in my game for now my using DF Hack's deramp on all the ramps along the water (a lake in my case). Picture for lolz: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24097132/Untitled-2.jpg [^]

(0021313) tshakah (reporter) 2012-03-09 11:52	Actually, that didn't work. Despite my depot saying that it is accessible, I just got the error message that the wagons had to bypass my site. :(

(0021846) kento (reporter) 2012-03-28 17:39	Depot access tells you what tiles have access to the depot. You need to make sure an edge tile is green on the depot access screen. Might the problem said to be that water levels lower before waterfalls? I don't think that happens with real waterfalls.

(0022432) Pattonius (reporter) 2012-05-05 00:44	I've encountered this bug as well. An immigrant potash maker and one of my two legendary miner/engravers went over the waterfall for reasons I couldn't figure out. I didn't have anything on the other side of the river they might be going to and the miner was tasked with smoothing my dining room at that time. I am uncertain as to why she was suddenly outside the fortress near the river. I got a "cancels drink: dangerous terrain" message for the potash maker. Also strange, as I had booze in my drink stockpile and he wasn't injured or sick. I built a bridge over the edge of the waterfall and haven't had a repeat occurrence, but still unfortunate to lose my miner for no reason.

(0022434) Khym Chanur (reporter) 2012-05-05 06:50	If the game removed the ramps into the river for the few tiles before the waterfall, that should fix the problem.

(0022723) Kumquat (reporter) 2012-05-25 10:09	Another side effect caused by this (?) bug: large fish (such as carp) apparently drown at the edge of the map in the 1/7 water. This only happens on the downstream edge, naturally. I don't know if this happens at waterfalls, too...