0000670: Migrants arrive although all Dwarven Civilizations are extinct

(0001614)
Logical2u (manager)
2010-04-06 17:07

This was present in the previous version as well, and is ostensibly a feature since there were a lot of issues with entire civs dying out, and it wouldn't be... well, fair, to have you generate a world that you can't play in.

(0001619)
udontknowme (reporter)
2010-04-06 17:24
edited on: 2010-04-06 17:30

Nope, in 40d you could play without Immgration (and Dwarven Caravans) this way.

(0001626)
Squirrelloid (reporter)
2010-04-06 18:03

Definitely had immigrants with all dwarf civs extinct in 40d.

This is most definitely a feature.

(0001629)
udontknowme (reporter)
2010-04-06 18:11

I definitely played several fortresses for many years without getting a single immigrant in 40d on maps generated with the above mentioned settings.

(0001630)
Logical2u (manager)
2010-04-06 18:12

Guess I've been reading the wrong threads then - http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=27594.0 [^] vs http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=40566.0 [^]

That or I was thinking more along the lines of "even if you embark on a deserted island, dwarves will still find their way there" thing.

(0001929)
Zeg (reporter)
2010-04-07 20:44

From my experience of trying to get no immigrants, its possible to have no dwarf civ but still get migrants some of the time. Equally, I've had it work fully and get no migrants at all.

I suspected at the time that getting migrants with no civ was due to the last mountain home being ruined very close to the end of world gen so there were still a few 'displaced' dwarven groups on the map. Probably checkable by digging through legends to see if every single dwarf is actually dead or not.

(0001930)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-07 21:00

even if it's not a feature, I would hardly consider this a major issue.

(0003827)
thvaz (reporter)
2010-04-16 05:14

Not a bug. Migrants and caravans always were, and still are, generated out of thin air, like your starting seven. This will change in the future, but as it is now, it's a feature.

(0003977)
udontknowme (reporter)
2010-04-17 07:32

Excuse me, but that is just plain wrong. As I already said, it was possible to play without caravans and immigrants in 40d, if you don't believe me, check the links that Logical2u posted, there are others that played this way.

It may not be a bug, maybe Toady wanted to change that, maybe it was a bug in 40d that this was even possible. But the behaviour of DF2010 is definately different from that of 40d.

(0014306)
Videospirit (reporter)
2010-11-29 19:20

I believe at one point migrants were taken from existing members of the civilization which lead to things like non dwarven migrants or dwarves with the drunk profession and such coming in the waves. I'm fairly certain they are currently random.

(0026097)
thvaz (reporter)
2014-07-13 00:56
edited on: 2014-07-13 00:58

Definitely not a bug. At worst is a incomplete feature, but Toady report on the forums sometimes that migrants would come from the "edges of the map". The threads linked above show that migrants coming with civilizations destroyed always happened, even before 0.31.01.

(0031127)
lethosor (manager)
2014-11-22 14:04

Does this still occur in 0.40.xx?

(0031129)
kicking jay (reporter)
2014-11-22 16:13

The first two waves of migrants are hard-coded, as are merchants. You can embark and get merchants and migrants even with no dwarves (but a single necromancer) having been alive on the planet for centuries.

It's not a bug, though. It's intended behavior but not permanently so: it's just a hack workaround for an unimplemented objective.

(0036251)
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2017-02-02 16:26
edited on: 2017-02-02 17:06

While you are playing the 'market site' dwarves are still embarking out to create new sites, occasionally if the right sites are in range you will get some hillocks springing up. local fortresses are more uncommon.

> Are you 100% sure its a new civ and not a new group? civilizations & groups are named differently on legends.

The 120 starting members specified for your entity in the RAWS would count towards founding new sites branching off your current location in the conditions you describe
_______________________________________________

A similar experience happens when you play with goblins who have the ability to build tunnels (giving unlimited range) and they settle other continents

> If you make a new settlement on another continent & have a working trade & outpost liaison, they will inform you that new towers & pits have been built AROUND you while you were waiting for the caravan without any links other than tunnels. Goblins don't have land restrictions so will settle anywhere. They'll give a little piece on who's in charge of each site.

_______________________________________________

A save would help please least to study in detail.

(0036253)
Loci (manager)
2017-02-03 05:09

A truly extinct dwarven civilization sends no immigrants beyond the two hard-coded waves, sends no trade caravans at all, and appoints no nobles (e.g. king, liaison). Truly extinct civilizations are still possible in v0.43 (though difficult due to 0009503), and vjek has kindly provided instructions to generate them:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158646.msg7055597#msg7055597 [^]

An extinct civilization will send the two hard-coded immigration waves, presumably an intentional decision to give your fortress a viable chance. If you would prefer not to receive those immigrants you can now block them using the population cap settings.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-04-06 16:57	udontknowme	New Issue
2010-04-06 16:57	udontknowme	Tag Attached: immigrants
2010-04-06 16:58	udontknowme	Tag Attached: migrants
2010-04-06 17:03	udontknowme	Issue Monitored: udontknowme
2010-04-06 17:07	Logical2u	Note Added: 0001614
2010-04-06 17:24	udontknowme	Note Added: 0001619
2010-04-06 17:30	udontknowme	Note Edited: 0001619	View Revisions
2010-04-06 18:03	Squirrelloid	Note Added: 0001626
2010-04-06 18:11	udontknowme	Note Added: 0001629
2010-04-06 18:12	Logical2u	Note Added: 0001630
2010-04-06 18:28	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0000675
2010-04-07 20:44	Zeg	Note Added: 0001929
2010-04-07 21:00	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0001930
2010-04-16 03:08	HistoryLessens	Issue Monitored: HistoryLessens
2010-04-16 05:14	thvaz	Note Added: 0003827
2010-04-17 07:32	udontknowme	Note Added: 0003977
2010-11-29 19:20	Videospirit	Note Added: 0014306
2012-06-03 16:28	Logical2u	Relationship added	has duplicate 0005984
2014-07-13 00:56	thvaz	Note Added: 0026097
2014-07-13 00:57	thvaz	Tag Attached: Not a bug
2014-07-13 00:57	thvaz	Tag Attached: Intentional/Expected?
2014-07-13 00:58	thvaz	Note Edited: 0026097	View Revisions
2014-09-14 07:32	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0008295
2014-11-22 14:04	lethosor	Note Added: 0031127
2014-11-22 14:04	lethosor	Assigned To	=> lethosor
2014-11-22 14:04	lethosor	Status	new => needs feedback
2014-11-22 16:13	kicking jay	Note Added: 0031129
2017-02-02 16:26	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0036251
2017-02-02 16:28	FantasticDorf	Note Edited: 0036251	View Revisions
2017-02-02 17:06	FantasticDorf	Note Edited: 0036251	View Revisions
2017-02-03 05:09	Loci	Note Added: 0036253
2017-02-03 05:09	Loci	Status	needs feedback => resolved
2017-02-03 05:09	Loci	Resolution	open => fixed
2017-02-03 05:09	Loci	Assigned To	lethosor => Loci

Notes
(0001614) Logical2u (manager) 2010-04-06 17:07	This was present in the previous version as well, and is ostensibly a feature since there were a lot of issues with entire civs dying out, and it wouldn't be... well, fair, to have you generate a world that you can't play in.

(0001619) udontknowme (reporter) 2010-04-06 17:24 edited on: 2010-04-06 17:30	Nope, in 40d you could play without Immgration (and Dwarven Caravans) this way.

(0001626) Squirrelloid (reporter) 2010-04-06 18:03	Definitely had immigrants with all dwarf civs extinct in 40d. This is most definitely a feature.

(0001629) udontknowme (reporter) 2010-04-06 18:11	I definitely played several fortresses for many years without getting a single immigrant in 40d on maps generated with the above mentioned settings.

(0001630) Logical2u (manager) 2010-04-06 18:12	Guess I've been reading the wrong threads then - http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=27594.0 [^] vs http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=40566.0 [^] That or I was thinking more along the lines of "even if you embark on a deserted island, dwarves will still find their way there" thing.

(0001929) Zeg (reporter) 2010-04-07 20:44	From my experience of trying to get no immigrants, its possible to have no dwarf civ but still get migrants some of the time. Equally, I've had it work fully and get no migrants at all. I suspected at the time that getting migrants with no civ was due to the last mountain home being ruined very close to the end of world gen so there were still a few 'displaced' dwarven groups on the map. Probably checkable by digging through legends to see if every single dwarf is actually dead or not.

(0001930) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-07 21:00	even if it's not a feature, I would hardly consider this a major issue.

(0003827) thvaz (reporter) 2010-04-16 05:14	Not a bug. Migrants and caravans always were, and still are, generated out of thin air, like your starting seven. This will change in the future, but as it is now, it's a feature.

(0003977) udontknowme (reporter) 2010-04-17 07:32	Excuse me, but that is just plain wrong. As I already said, it was possible to play without caravans and immigrants in 40d, if you don't believe me, check the links that Logical2u posted, there are others that played this way. It may not be a bug, maybe Toady wanted to change that, maybe it was a bug in 40d that this was even possible. But the behaviour of DF2010 is definately different from that of 40d.

(0014306) Videospirit (reporter) 2010-11-29 19:20	I believe at one point migrants were taken from existing members of the civilization which lead to things like non dwarven migrants or dwarves with the drunk profession and such coming in the waves. I'm fairly certain they are currently random.

(0026097) thvaz (reporter) 2014-07-13 00:56 edited on: 2014-07-13 00:58	Definitely not a bug. At worst is a incomplete feature, but Toady report on the forums sometimes that migrants would come from the "edges of the map". The threads linked above show that migrants coming with civilizations destroyed always happened, even before 0.31.01.

(0031127) lethosor (manager) 2014-11-22 14:04	Does this still occur in 0.40.xx?

(0031129) kicking jay (reporter) 2014-11-22 16:13	The first two waves of migrants are hard-coded, as are merchants. You can embark and get merchants and migrants even with no dwarves (but a single necromancer) having been alive on the planet for centuries. It's not a bug, though. It's intended behavior but not permanently so: it's just a hack workaround for an unimplemented objective.

(0036251) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2017-02-02 16:26 edited on: 2017-02-02 17:06	While you are playing the 'market site' dwarves are still embarking out to create new sites, occasionally if the right sites are in range you will get some hillocks springing up. local fortresses are more uncommon. > Are you 100% sure its a new civ and not a new group? civilizations & groups are named differently on legends. The 120 starting members specified for your entity in the RAWS would count towards founding new sites branching off your current location in the conditions you describe _______________________________________________ A similar experience happens when you play with goblins who have the ability to build tunnels (giving unlimited range) and they settle other continents > If you make a new settlement on another continent & have a working trade & outpost liaison, they will inform you that new towers & pits have been built AROUND you while you were waiting for the caravan without any links other than tunnels. Goblins don't have land restrictions so will settle anywhere. They'll give a little piece on who's in charge of each site. _______________________________________________ A save would help please least to study in detail.

(0036253) Loci (manager) 2017-02-03 05:09	A truly extinct dwarven civilization sends no immigrants beyond the two hard-coded waves, sends no trade caravans at all, and appoints no nobles (e.g. king, liaison). Truly extinct civilizations are still possible in v0.43 (though difficult due to 0009503), and vjek has kindly provided instructions to generate them: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158646.msg7055597#msg7055597 [^] An extinct civilization will send the two hard-coded immigration waves, presumably an intentional decision to give your fortress a viable chance. If you would prefer not to receive those immigrants you can now block them using the population cap settings.