0001553: Aluminum not available to all dwarven civs

(0005161)
Rafal99 (reporter)
2010-04-26 12:49

I was ordering in liason screen and buying native aluminum without problems, so not reproducible here.

(0005165)
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-04-26 13:02

Rafal99: can you order aluminum the metal from the liaison?

Dekon: have you tried looking for native aluminum as opposed to aluminum?

(0005169)
Dekon (reporter)
2010-04-26 13:23

I think I once looked for native, and couldn't find it.

I'll check again on the next caravan, since this is a new fort since then.

But yeah, aluminum metal bars are definitely, without a doubt, gone.

(0005178)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-04-26 14:05

Someone posted that a dwarf made an aluminum crutch artifact, so aluminum exists somewhere.

Could vary widely by the worldgen, the site you choose, and what civ you choose.

(0005180)
king doom (reporter)
2010-04-26 14:10
edited on: 2010-04-26 14:11

The lack is probably a deliberate choice on Toadys part, given how annoying it is to refine the stuff, despite the fact it makes up about 10% of the entire planets surface. I'll laugh if you can get the ability to refine it yourself at some point, I know you can get it from bauxite among other stones.

(0005189)
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-04-26 15:04

king doom: DF doesn't let you smelt aluminum from bauxite. The only source is native aluminum, and you ARE supposed to be able to get aluminum from it, as indicated from its METAL_ORE tag and Toady's comments here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1788.msg28133#msg28133 [^]

(0005246)
Dekon (reporter)
2010-04-26 20:11

Well, I would like to help you, Footkerchief, but I had to go -back- a season since my dwarven caravan showed up, dropped -all- their crap off at the depot, and promptly left. The Liaison then skipped to the very end of the conversation where he told me what prices he'd give me next year.

So I've gone back a season to see if my brain just hemorraged somewhere throughout this process, though I'm quite sure I didn't take the time to buy all their useless crap because, unlike some strange folk I hear about on the forums, I take little pride in 'buying out' a caravan.

Never even saw them enter the freaking depot to begin with.

(0005256)
Dekon (reporter)
2010-04-26 20:31

Nope. No Aluminum ore.

(0005266)
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-04-26 20:49
edited on: 2010-04-26 20:50

Thanks for checking. It's possible it does boil down to bad luck, although it could have any number of causes -- bad placement of minerals (0000804), bad calculation of civ access to minerals, who knows.

Have you been playing in very young worlds? I'm guessing territory size might affect the civ's mineral availability.

(0005333)
Dekon (reporter)
2010-04-27 06:31

Nope. All the standard of 1050. I've played..hrm..3-5 worlds so far, forgotten exactly. All -my- starting spots have contained no igneous extrusive. According to the 40D info on Aluminum, Igneous extrusive is the only place where Aluminum is found - but it seems to be a lot rarer, now.

At least in 40D, though, dwarves would always carry the same set of metals, regardless of what they would have in ores/stone. There was simply a standard set of metals.

(0005408)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-04-27 14:51

I just want to report that in checking embark supplies for something totally unrelated to this, I looked at the metal bars and the civ that I have selected does have aluminum bars as well as native aluminum ore.

Its also a world that I stopped at 300 years, so having a young world might not affect it unless you stop it within the first 100 years, before the civs have expanded much.

(0005422)
Shadowics (reporter)
2010-04-27 15:56
edited on: 2010-04-27 20:15

I have definitely gotten aluminum from my dwarf traders, specifically 1 Native Aluminum Block, and 1 Aluminum Bar. I don't recall seeing any native aluminum ore, but I haven't been requesting it either.

Edit: Yes, I can request Aluminum Bars and Native Aluminum ore from the dwarven traders.

(0005438)
Dekon (reporter)
2010-04-27 17:24

I suppose it may just be me, then. It's odd, because they have -every- other form of metal bars. The problem is, aluminum -only- occurs in igneous extrusive, which isn't that terribly common. It's easy for the mountainhomes to not get placed near it.

The other problem is that igneous extrusive -doesn't- contain many other metals. Which is why I never start on it myself. The 'white' embark layers are what contain all that beautiful iron which makes such wonderful steel.

(0011718)
Dekon (reporter)
2010-08-11 09:30

Just to update this - I did recently get aluminum from a caravan on one map, but only one.

It just seems to be very rare.

(0014707)
Dwarfu (manager)
2010-12-26 14:37

Thanks for the update, Dekon.

Since you did get aluminum ore and bars and someone else verified blocks, I'll resolve this report. If you can find a civ that should have it but doesn't, please reopen this report and upload a save.

(0018175)
Dekon (reporter)
2011-07-09 04:28

I discovered this isn't a matter of 'rarity'. It's a matter of placement, and placement in such a way that it -may- be a bug. I'm not sure if it's intentional.

After a large amount of testing, I've discovered that you will -always- have aluminum available if your starting location included mountains/hills. Even a single bit of mountain/hill is enough. Conversely, you will -never- have aluminum available if you start your fort out in land away from hills/mountains.

When I submitted this bug, I had been playing out away from mountains to take advantage of flat terrain and large numbers of trees. For various reasons, I recently decided to start playing some mountain forts - and every fort that contained at least one tile of hill/mountain terrain would allow for aluminum.

(0018180)
Beeskee (reporter)
2011-07-09 10:26
edited on: 2011-07-09 10:26

I played 2 forts recently, one with low metal content in the world, and one with high metal content. In the low metal one, the dwarfs didn't have aluminium for trade. In the high metal one they did. (And I found some locally)

In the low metal one my civ had steel but no iron, but that's another issue. ;)

(0018183)
Dwarfu (manager)
2011-07-09 13:44

Reminder sent to: Dekon

Interesting.

For more detailed testing, please indicated if your CIV was in an area that should have aluminum (thereby making it available for trade). Also, for both your site and your civ's other sites, was the presence of aluminum because they were in igneous extrusive rock?

(0018361)
kwieland (reporter)
2011-07-28 19:11

I've seen the same thing with colored diamonds. I would have thought that most civ's should have access to them, but sometimes you get a world in which the civ's don't.

(0018748)
Valdrax (reporter)
2011-09-21 00:35

@Dekon. How far away from the mountains do you have to be?

I am working on a flat, oceanside fort 1/5 from the northern edge of a small map, where the closest mountain range is the Mountainhome's location, 1/5 from the southern edge of the map.

I have access to aluminum from trade, and IIRC when I popped the game over to Windows and tested DFReveal & DFProspector, I had some native aluminum a few levels above the magma sea in a basalt layer. My world does have a minimum volcanism of 30 and volcanism X/Y variability cranked to the max, though.

I think this bug, if it is a bug, probably should be downgraded from "always" status.

(0024362)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-01-26 08:42

Appears to be intentional.

Notes
(0005161) Rafal99 (reporter) 2010-04-26 12:49	I was ordering in liason screen and buying native aluminum without problems, so not reproducible here.

(0005165) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-04-26 13:02	Rafal99: can you order aluminum the metal from the liaison? Dekon: have you tried looking for native aluminum as opposed to aluminum?

(0005169) Dekon (reporter) 2010-04-26 13:23	I think I once looked for native, and couldn't find it. I'll check again on the next caravan, since this is a new fort since then. But yeah, aluminum metal bars are definitely, without a doubt, gone.

(0005178) smjjames (reporter) 2010-04-26 14:05	Someone posted that a dwarf made an aluminum crutch artifact, so aluminum exists somewhere. Could vary widely by the worldgen, the site you choose, and what civ you choose.

(0005180) king doom (reporter) 2010-04-26 14:10 edited on: 2010-04-26 14:11	The lack is probably a deliberate choice on Toadys part, given how annoying it is to refine the stuff, despite the fact it makes up about 10% of the entire planets surface. I'll laugh if you can get the ability to refine it yourself at some point, I know you can get it from bauxite among other stones.

(0005189) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-04-26 15:04	king doom: DF doesn't let you smelt aluminum from bauxite. The only source is native aluminum, and you ARE supposed to be able to get aluminum from it, as indicated from its METAL_ORE tag and Toady's comments here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1788.msg28133#msg28133 [^]

(0005246) Dekon (reporter) 2010-04-26 20:11	Well, I would like to help you, Footkerchief, but I had to go -back- a season since my dwarven caravan showed up, dropped -all- their crap off at the depot, and promptly left. The Liaison then skipped to the very end of the conversation where he told me what prices he'd give me next year. So I've gone back a season to see if my brain just hemorraged somewhere throughout this process, though I'm quite sure I didn't take the time to buy all their useless crap because, unlike some strange folk I hear about on the forums, I take little pride in 'buying out' a caravan. Never even saw them enter the freaking depot to begin with.

(0005256) Dekon (reporter) 2010-04-26 20:31	Nope. No Aluminum ore.

(0005266) Footkerchief (manager) 2010-04-26 20:49 edited on: 2010-04-26 20:50	Thanks for checking. It's possible it does boil down to bad luck, although it could have any number of causes -- bad placement of minerals (0000804), bad calculation of civ access to minerals, who knows. Have you been playing in very young worlds? I'm guessing territory size might affect the civ's mineral availability.

(0005333) Dekon (reporter) 2010-04-27 06:31	Nope. All the standard of 1050. I've played..hrm..3-5 worlds so far, forgotten exactly. All -my- starting spots have contained no igneous extrusive. According to the 40D info on Aluminum, Igneous extrusive is the only place where Aluminum is found - but it seems to be a lot rarer, now. At least in 40D, though, dwarves would always carry the same set of metals, regardless of what they would have in ores/stone. There was simply a standard set of metals.

(0005408) smjjames (reporter) 2010-04-27 14:51	I just want to report that in checking embark supplies for something totally unrelated to this, I looked at the metal bars and the civ that I have selected does have aluminum bars as well as native aluminum ore. Its also a world that I stopped at 300 years, so having a young world might not affect it unless you stop it within the first 100 years, before the civs have expanded much.

(0005422) Shadowics (reporter) 2010-04-27 15:56 edited on: 2010-04-27 20:15	I have definitely gotten aluminum from my dwarf traders, specifically 1 Native Aluminum Block, and 1 Aluminum Bar. I don't recall seeing any native aluminum ore, but I haven't been requesting it either. Edit: Yes, I can request Aluminum Bars and Native Aluminum ore from the dwarven traders.

(0005438) Dekon (reporter) 2010-04-27 17:24	I suppose it may just be me, then. It's odd, because they have -every- other form of metal bars. The problem is, aluminum -only- occurs in igneous extrusive, which isn't that terribly common. It's easy for the mountainhomes to not get placed near it. The other problem is that igneous extrusive -doesn't- contain many other metals. Which is why I never start on it myself. The 'white' embark layers are what contain all that beautiful iron which makes such wonderful steel.

(0011718) Dekon (reporter) 2010-08-11 09:30	Just to update this - I did recently get aluminum from a caravan on one map, but only one. It just seems to be very rare.

(0014707) Dwarfu (manager) 2010-12-26 14:37	Thanks for the update, Dekon. Since you did get aluminum ore and bars and someone else verified blocks, I'll resolve this report. If you can find a civ that should have it but doesn't, please reopen this report and upload a save.

(0018175) Dekon (reporter) 2011-07-09 04:28	I discovered this isn't a matter of 'rarity'. It's a matter of placement, and placement in such a way that it -may- be a bug. I'm not sure if it's intentional. After a large amount of testing, I've discovered that you will -always- have aluminum available if your starting location included mountains/hills. Even a single bit of mountain/hill is enough. Conversely, you will -never- have aluminum available if you start your fort out in land away from hills/mountains. When I submitted this bug, I had been playing out away from mountains to take advantage of flat terrain and large numbers of trees. For various reasons, I recently decided to start playing some mountain forts - and every fort that contained at least one tile of hill/mountain terrain would allow for aluminum.

(0018180) Beeskee (reporter) 2011-07-09 10:26 edited on: 2011-07-09 10:26	I played 2 forts recently, one with low metal content in the world, and one with high metal content. In the low metal one, the dwarfs didn't have aluminium for trade. In the high metal one they did. (And I found some locally) In the low metal one my civ had steel but no iron, but that's another issue. ;)

(0018183) Dwarfu (manager) 2011-07-09 13:44	Reminder sent to: Dekon Interesting. For more detailed testing, please indicated if your CIV was in an area that should have aluminum (thereby making it available for trade). Also, for both your site and your civ's other sites, was the presence of aluminum because they were in igneous extrusive rock?

(0018361) kwieland (reporter) 2011-07-28 19:11	I've seen the same thing with colored diamonds. I would have thought that most civ's should have access to them, but sometimes you get a world in which the civ's don't.

(0018748) Valdrax (reporter) 2011-09-21 00:35	@Dekon. How far away from the mountains do you have to be? I am working on a flat, oceanside fort 1/5 from the northern edge of a small map, where the closest mountain range is the Mountainhome's location, 1/5 from the southern edge of the map. I have access to aluminum from trade, and IIRC when I popped the game over to Windows and tested DFReveal & DFProspector, I had some native aluminum a few levels above the magma sea in a basalt layer. My world does have a minimum volcanism of 30 and volcanism X/Y variability cranked to the max, though. I think this bug, if it is a bug, probably should be downgraded from "always" status.

(0024362) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-01-26 08:42	Appears to be intentional.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-04-26 11:52	Dekon	New Issue
2010-04-26 12:49	Rafal99	Note Added: 0005161
2010-04-26 13:02	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0005165
2010-04-26 13:02	Footkerchief	Issue Monitored: Footkerchief
2010-04-26 13:23	Dekon	Note Added: 0005169
2010-04-26 14:05	smjjames	Note Added: 0005178
2010-04-26 14:10	king doom	Note Added: 0005180
2010-04-26 14:11	king doom	Note Edited: 0005180	View Revisions
2010-04-26 15:04	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0005189
2010-04-26 20:11	Dekon	Note Added: 0005246
2010-04-26 20:31	Dekon	Note Added: 0005256
2010-04-26 20:49	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0005266
2010-04-26 20:50	Footkerchief	Note Edited: 0005266	View Revisions
2010-04-27 06:31	Dekon	Note Added: 0005333
2010-04-27 14:51	smjjames	Note Added: 0005408
2010-04-27 15:56	Shadowics	Note Added: 0005422
2010-04-27 17:15	Footkerchief	Summary	Aluminum in Dwarf Trade Caravans => Aluminum not available to all dwarven civs
2010-04-27 17:15	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: Intentional?
2010-04-27 17:24	Dekon	Note Added: 0005438
2010-04-27 20:15	Shadowics	Note Edited: 0005422	View Revisions
2010-07-12 12:03	Footkerchief	Tag Renamed	Intentional? => Intentional/Expected?
2010-08-11 09:30	Dekon	Note Added: 0011718
2010-12-26 14:34	Dwarfu	Tag Detached: Intentional/Expected?
2010-12-26 14:37	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0014707
2010-12-26 14:37	Dwarfu	Status	new => resolved
2010-12-26 14:37	Dwarfu	Resolution	open => no change required
2010-12-26 14:37	Dwarfu	Assigned To	=> Dwarfu
2011-07-09 04:28	Dekon	Note Added: 0018175
2011-07-09 04:28	Dekon	Status	resolved => needs feedback
2011-07-09 04:28	Dekon	Resolution	no change required => reopened
2011-07-09 10:26	Beeskee	Note Added: 0018180
2011-07-09 10:26	Beeskee	Note Edited: 0018180	View Revisions
2011-07-09 13:44	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0018183
2011-07-28 10:21	Footkerchief	Assigned To	Dwarfu =>
2011-07-28 10:21	Footkerchief	Status	needs feedback => new
2011-07-28 19:11	kwieland	Note Added: 0018361
2011-09-21 00:35	Valdrax	Note Added: 0018748
2012-02-23 19:00	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0001127
2014-01-26 08:42	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0024362
2014-01-26 08:42	Footkerchief	Status	new => resolved
2014-01-26 08:42	Footkerchief	Resolution	reopened => no change required
2014-01-26 08:42	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Footkerchief